question for bullseye pistol reloaders:

[taliv]

well one reason i like TG in 9mm is that this load is really burning extremely clean. in 5500 rounds i've really only cleaned it twice and had minimal build up. i am not a pistol powder guru though so maybe it is a bad choice. powder was hard to come by a few months ago and TG is what i had from shooting 45acp.

this pistol does have the apex kit as well.

accuracy in their revolvers is impressive.

 

[243winxb]

This S&W M&P pro core 9mm would seem to fit into the "spray & pray" cataglory. Not Bullseye.

 

[rangerphil]

Even though powder selection, charge weight and bullet selection all contribute to accuracy, I think that this might be a case of a firearm issue based on the size of the groups. You have tried different bullets with similar results. I think TG powder is an excellent powder for 9mm and I don't think a minor charge reduction will result in your groups moving from 6" to 2" as previously stated.

If it were me, the first thing I would do is try some factory ammo from one of the major manufacturers and see if the groups shrink.

 

[rangerphil]

Oops, I see that you are shooting Bullseye powder, but my comment remains the same...I don't think its a powder issue.

 

[taliv]

no you had it right. not Alliant Bullseye powder, but a 'bullseye' powder. i'm only shooting titegroup

 

[HighExpert]

First, you don't have a "bullseye" gun. That being said, 9mm is not an inherently accurate caliber. The service armories have had fits making the M9 accurate enough to compete. The caliber is just too fast and the tapered case doesn't help either. All that being said, your accuracy is really bad. You may have to slow the rounds down and even go to a lighter spring to get it to function. We download even .38 spc down to get accuracy. All it has to do is go 50yards and through the paper in the same hole. Power is not your friend. I would load down to about 700fps and cycle the slide manually to check the gun to see what it is capable of.

 

[chiltech500]

Taliv,

I'm not in the same league of knowledge a Walkalong or BDS both who have helped me.

That said I have done a lot of reading about 1911's, accurizing and some about Bullseye because I want to join a league. . I suspect that whatever bullet/powder combo you try will yield the same result.

Your pistol is optimized for self defense and reliability in a variety of situations, not for accuracy at 25 yards. It may not be capable of more than a 4 or 5" group at that distance - I suspect you don't shoot handguns that distance very often, so it's not you.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the same didn't happen with a Glock or some other Self Defense guns of that nature.

I have read Bill Wilsons book and this gent wraps up the analogy of a pistol purpose built for combat/self defense not being the same as one purpose built for tight groups:

"In the old days, buying a Colt 1911 new in the box was not necessarily going to yield the best accuracy, either. The plain jane pistol was a military design, and to get the reliability, it was too loose in its tolerances to yield the best accuracy. Over the years, various talented gunsmiths addressed this issue, and the 1911 became very accurate indeed.
When I got a Colt Mk IV Series 70 NIB in 1976, I didn't even shoot it, just sent it off to Wilson's for a trigger job, Bomar sights, and a few other tweaks. Then I dropped a Bar-Sto barrel in it. That gun would shoot into a quarter at 25 yards all day (back when I was young enough to shoot that well) with a 200 gr. H&G #68 SWC pushed by 5.3 gr. of 231. But I had to develop that load carefully, paying particular attention to OAL, before it would fee reliably. Accurizing the gun meant I sacrificed some reliability."

.

 

[243winxb]

S&W M&P Shield - NRA test

http://www.americanrifleman.org/article.php?id=13509&cat=20&sub=21&q=1 Note that groups were fired at 7 yards from a bench rest. Not the same firearm, but i would expect the same or better from a longer sight radius gun. I would try some factory ammo to compare with the reloads. Good luck.

 

[Rule3]

I totally disagree that the "9mm is not an inherently accurate caliber."

I have several that get boringly accurate, shooting in the same hole. CZ custom, BHP and Sig .

Even the SA XDm will out shoot the SW.

YMMV

 

[Walkalong]

9mm is not an inherently accurate caliber.

I'd have to agree with this, as it is a lot harder to find a great load in 9MM vs .45 ACP, where one can practically stumble on great loads.

 

[LiveLife]

i have reloaded tens of thousands of pistol rounds but only optimizing reliability, never loading for accuracy like i do in rifles, but now i am having trouble keeping 8" groups at 25 yards with a production pistol.

my BEST 3 shot group of the day was roughly 6" at 25y shooting off a bench with the gun rested on a bag!

... i'm not willing to change bullet or powder type, only the charge weight. brass is mixed, fired

As I PMed taliv, just tested some Berry's regular plated 124 gr RN (solid base) loads with Titegroup as I finished my range test for Herco and 9mm and started new range test for Berry's 115 gr HBRN with W231/HP-38 and Titegroup.

5 round shot groups were fired at 25 yards out of Glock 22 using KKM and Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrels. All the test rounds were loaded to 1.160" OAL and .378" taper crimp was used with mixed range brass that have been reloaded several times by me.

Berry's 124 gr RN (regular plated with solid base):

3.8 gr Titegroup - 3" - 4" (Smallest shot group 2.80")

4.0 gr Titegroup - 2" - 4" (Smallest shot group 1.70")

4.3 gr Titegroup - 3.5" - 4.5" (Disclaimer: Since Hodgdon lists 4.1 gr as max for 124 gr Berry's HBRN at 1.150", use this load at your own risk)

Shotgroup pictures

 

[bluetopper]

Accuracy tests based on 7 yard shooting is utterly ridiculous in my opinion. Try 25 then 50 yards and then you'll see what you truly have.

I only have two 9mm's....A Dan Wesson 1911 and a Fusion 6" Longslide 1911.
You need to get powders in the burn rate of HP-38 to Power Pistol..........Green Dot, American Select, Universal, and N340 included within. All great target powders for 9mm. Been tweaking and experimenting with 9mm accuracy loads for more years than I care to admit. Cast bullets is all I shoot.

 

[taliv]

thanks again for the assistance all

i shot a little tonight with the 3.8g loads and my group improved slightly. i'm considering an aftermarket barrel.

 

[Nordeste]

Certainly my data won't be of much use at the other side of the pond (it happens the other way around, too, sadly enough), but as I was having quite a bit of trouble hitting a 5" steel plate at some 15 yards with my Star 30M, I decided to go to the bullseye range (it's IPSC what I usually shoot) and check what was going on. My usual load was of 4'7 grains of a locally manufactured powder called Optima A, under a 125 grain copper plated HN HS RN .356" bullet (made in Germany, good stuff), with a light taper crimp, at 1'13" OAL. This load chronoed at 1050 fps, so well within PF.

The results were utterly disappointing. I was shooting from a rest, doing my best on breath and trigger control and the groups spread wildly across 10 or 12". Went back home frowning and wondering what could be that wrong. I even had my pistol checked by a more experienced fellow shooter who is mechanically inclined, just in case there was some play I should worry about (which I thought there wasn't). He said the gun was OK.

As lowering the charge wasn't an option, since I would drop out of the minimum power factor, increasing OAL and/or the charge was the way to go. I got it up to 1'15" with the same 4'7 charge, and then with 4'9, decimal up or down. 15 rounds of each. I got these through the chrono and the 4'7 grains load averaged 1030 fps (barely within PF) and the 4'9 load averaged 1070, and it was time to head for the bullseye range. Here came the surprise. With the longer OAL and the 4'7 grain load, the groups were now 6-7" wide, but with the 4'9 grain load, they were somewhere in between 4 to 5". I was shooting at 27 yards.

I then tested some factory Magtech CBC 124 FMJ that, on previous dates, had chronoed at 1120 fps on my pistol. This ammo is loaded with 5'3 grains of an obviously unknown powder and felt much snappier than my 4'9 grains load. The results were worse than with my 4'9 grain load.

The conclusion is that I might be on the way to find the sweet spot for this pistol. It looks like she prefers the longer OAL and to stay within a narrow range of velocities. Apparently, getting the bullet closer to the rifling and the increased charge had a side effect on pressure build up and combustion cleanliness, as when I checked the cases there was less powder residue with the hotter load. The bad news is that I have over 500 rounds of the old recipe that I don't feel like dismantling. Let those be for training, but I will be using the new load for the upcoming match season.

"Reloading is a lot about trial and error", is one of the first things I heard when I first got into this. Absolutely.

 

[Walkalong]

Do you have any medium speed powders? I would try one first.

 

[sexybeast]

There is nothing wrong with titegroup! Lots of bullseye shooters use it. It has very simular burn characteristics as Bullseye powder, almost the exact load data can be used. You won't get max power out of it and you won't make minor power factor either with that load of 3.8gr,,,, but it meters well and burns very clean at lower pressures.
Before you do anything expensive like an aftermarket barrel drop the load down to 3.6 and put some of them on paper. My load is 3.5gr of titegroup with lead bullets. You have made progress with just .2gr, don't give up now.

 

[LiveLife]

OP is using plated bullets

... not open to other bullets because i already bought 21,000 RMR 124g plated

taliv, perhaps you can give S&W customer service/technical support a call and explain your problem/issue - you never know, may get a tighter replacement barrel or be transferred to the Performance Center ...

 

[John C]

What are everyone's expectations of how accurate this pistol should be?

I think 6 inches at 25 yards is a little on the wide side. I wouldn't expect better than 4 inches. The slide to frame and barrel to slide fit are likely too loose to get much better in a duty pistol.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

I'm going to repeat myself - and argue a bit as well.

First to the best of my knowledge and belief and experience and observation the 9x19 is today commonly noticably more accurate than the .45ACP in best accurized guns. See e.g. the S&W 952 and many other match guns in 9X19. For a more or less combat handgun in 9x19 the Sig 210 has enjoyed a remarkable reputation and high price for lo these many years - either inherently accurate or made so.

FWIW my understanding is that the issue with accurizing the M9 was not the pistol and was not inherent to the cartridge but was the haphazard nature of ammunition produced anyplace in the world for a wild assortment of firearms. Chasing a moving target is hard - given match ammunition making the gun shoot is easier.

See e.g. Patrick Sweeney's discussion in the his book Reloading for Handgunners for an extended discussion of the 9x19 in gun games and accuracy contests. Notice also his experience with fast powders and lead bullets which is too long to excerpt but everybody shooting the 9X19 should look at this if only browsing the section at a brick and mortar book store. Any serious pistol shooter should have all of Patrick Sweeney's books (usually available at 40% off on sale direct from Krause and often very very poor edited but still worth it). Short form fast powders that work well at powder puff gallery loads - Bullseye in the low pressure .45 ACP - give much more mixed results in higher pressure 9x19 loads.

It is certainly true today that the match M9 with current match ammunition will on average shoot smaller groups in bullseye competition than .45ACP wad guns. - maybe the service shooters are just that much better but it's true in PPC and everywhere else.

That said the S&W M&P in all its incarnations is not now, and never has been a match pistol - maybe someday with aftermarket parts. I previously referenced Hilton Yam - here is an extract for folks who won't follow up or who don't know or care who Hilton Yam is.

The main downfall of the M&P 9mm is the wildly varying accuracy thanks to some QC issues and design flaws. [See the original for specifics] ....... I feel that 3″ or less is a good measure for service pistol accuracy at 25 yards. My 3 primary M&P 9mm’s will all shoot 3″ or better at 25 yards with any 147 grain ammunition that I feed them, and two of them have printed 2 5/8″ standing offhand at 25 yards with 147 grain. That works for me. However, all three of the guns shoot about 6-8″ at 25 yards using 115 and 124 grain ammo. My solution at this point is just to stick with 147 grain. .........So that’s why I shoot the M&P. I am not blind to its faults, but I have figured out how to work around all of them, and really enjoy the platform

Hilton Yam a well known reliable expert. It might pay anybody interested in the subject to read Hilton Yam's work arounds.

And once again given this background I would expect the original hope that ridiculously small changes would produce ridiculously large effects is a wild goose chase - that said folks have been known to catch wild geese but expletive omitted seldom.

 

[Rule3]

What are everyone's expectations of how accurate this pistol should be?

I think 6 inches at 25 yards is a little on the wide side. I wouldn't expect better than 4 inches. The slide to frame and barrel to slide fit are likely too loose to get much better in a duty pistol.

JMO but the MP is a Duty or Combat gun not a precision target gun. At least the one I had and other ones I have shot. It's a good gun and functions fine. I agree 6" is pretty big but mine "patterned" not grouped about the same maybe a tad better.

I still recommend sending it back to the Mothership for testing after shooting some factory ammo, Heck SW uses WWB. to test.

 

[LiveLife]

For quite a few years, I have used the following accuracy reference for factory production service pistols as I consider 7-15 yards "practical" defensive distance:

1" at 7 yards
2" at 10 yards
3" at 15 yards

I do test shot groups at 7 yards, but as we all know, 7 yards is really not a true test of accuracy, rather I use this initial test to check proper cycling of slide/extraction/feeding/chambering, etc. (Now, if your pistol can't group 1" at 7 yards, something is terribly wrong). If the pistol shot 2" at 15 yards, I considered it more accurate than average. If the pistol shot 1" at 15 yards, very accurate.

Since there are more factors at play at 25 yards, I consider anything less than 4" to be accurate and less than 2" to be very accurate.

 

[Walkalong]

I expect guns to shoot under an inch at 7 yards. Some will shoot well under that.

 

[taliv]

guys, once again, i'm not shooting bullseye with this gun. 4" groups at 25 would be fantastic. i'm not asking for more than that. i put bullseye in the title because i'm interested in the opinions of people who reload for accuracy.

clark, thanks for the yam quote.

and you won't make minor power factor either with that load of 3.8gr,,,

really? minor is only 125. I only have to be going 1025 fps to make that. I haven't chrono'd but i'd guess i'm well above 1100 fps. the loads are certainly supersonic.

 

[LiveLife]

What kind of groups are you getting at 7/10/15 yards using the 3.8/4.0 gr loads? Should be around 1"-2" or less with those loads. Have the trigger contact surfaces been polished? Does your front sight jump when you release the striker?

With your 124 gr plated RN, try using the longest OAL that will feed from the magazine (like around 1.150"-1.160") and minimize the taper crimp to not cut into the plating (I used .378" for the test but you can even try .379"-.380").

Even though you won't compete in bullseye matches, it would be good to get your 25 yard groups below 4".

 

[ClarkEMyers]

To repeat and of course IMHO - I expect results with Titegroup at full bore 9X19 pressures with plated bullets to be very erratic across different guns - of course wide variation may move into the desired numbers so by all means keep trying.

This is based on the observation that properly fitted cast bullets at gallery pistol pressures do very well so the imp of the perverse says high pressure plated bullets won't do nearly so well. To rephrase I think the combination is moving into a nonlinear range in the application as listed - and I don't trust plated bullets (except Gold Dots) so I'd drop pressure but still not expect much.

I like WAP simply because I have (started to write plenty but in today's world there is no plenty and I have some 473AA to use up - data in Speer #11) enough. I'd have high hopes for as slow as Herco or Bluedot and nothing faster than HP38/231

Myself I would start by establishing a preferred OAL - not expecting much difference - and more important a preferred crimp doubly important with mixed cases - expecting a noticeable difference playing with crimp - noticeable does not mean more than makes a difference not solves an issue. Given a preferred crimp I would play with positioning the powder muzzle up/muzzle down. Varying just charge weights with Titegroup and the plated bullets whatever primers and mixed cases I'd definitely refine anything else I could first - which shouldn't take very long at all; then see what happens next. And of course I'd still be expecting about the same as current results.