Dickson City, Pa Police Harass Gun Owners

[electronrider]

What REALLY needs to happen, is they ned to have a rally, and let law enforcement know that there are going to be several HUNDRED open carry people at some resturaunt, and set it up for videa, and have a field day with all these clueless jack booted thugs.

 

[S4Lee]

There's a live call in show talking about this right now:
http://wilknetwork.com/State-Smoking...A-Bump/2177389

Click the Listen Now link.

Just caught the last minute or so, but the guys at PAFOA forums aren't too happy w/ the host (Corbett?).

Updated 4:12pm - Brady Campaign's Paul Helmke just called in...

Updated 4:45pm - Corbett just talked to a guy meeting up with a group going to the town council meeting tonight. He was actually polite to the guy (I was surprised, considering how he was bashing the OC'ers when antis were on the air). He's on the air until 7pm and taking calls if anyone wants to call in.

 

[RecoilRob]

I know some local LEO's, and I'd wager that most of them DON'T know the Law's regarding Open Carry. And, I'd expect them to react just about the same way the Cops did when they received the 'gun' call the other night over east in our Commonwealth.

Some hindsight here.....If they would have notified the local Police Chief beforehand of their intentions (I know. They don't HAVE to...but, come on, what did you expect to happen?) it would have given him time to research the Laws, find out what goes, instruct his people to not over-react to the situation, and everything should have gone smoothly.

When the first 'call' came in, the responding Officer would have KNOWN what was what, and probably just checked out the scene for criminal activity. The Citizens would have seen that the PoPo gave the open carry folks the green light...and all would have been well.

Now....IF, after fair warning the PoPo decided to roust the group, all the emotions and 'Jack Booted Thuggery' comments would be valid and every legal attempt at making them pay would be justified.

As it stands right now, I'm thinking that the people involved should have seen this coming and been a little more understanding of the local Police force. Rather than trying to embarrass them, a sincere attempt at education might have been better for all involved.

 

[MartinBrody]

RecoilRob, aside from the open carry issue, I am very concerned that PA police are running guns against an illegal database. If a gun comes up stolen in the database I am fine with it being confiscated, but if there is no record, the police have no right to confiscate. I am a C&R holder, say I buy an EG Makarov using my C&R at a gun show, a PA cop runs it in their illegal database (which it will not come up in), now I am in the position to prove ownership to get it back??? That is not right! I may be wrong but the person who had their gun confiscated illegally was an FFL, they may be in a situation I just described.

I respectfully disagree with your assertions regarding what would have happened if they had given the cops a "heads up".

 

[RecoilRob]

Martin,
I agree wholeheartedly that the State Police 'database' (that they claim isn't a database) is unconstitutional and illegal. For sure. And, taking someones firearm just because it doesn't show up on their 'database' is contemptable and should cause major lawsuit to ensue.

I'm just going by my knowledge of the guys I know on the local Forces. Mostly good eggs who can't be expected to know EVERY law...even those that are important to us!

And, placing someone with the ability to make your life miserable in an embarrassing situation isn't normally a smart thing to do. Must be getting old...because I am pretty sure that if we did the same thing here in Uniontown (with prior notification) that we wouldn't be talking about how our Cops are thugs.

Maybe some like minded people around the Pittsburgh area would consider a test??? I'd be willing to sport my Barbeque Gun rig at the event!

 

[valtr0n]

No one should have to notify local law enforcement of their intentions to obey the law.

It is not my job to keep the police up to date on what is okay and what is not. I do not get paid for that. It is their job and their responsibility.

 

[granuale]

There are many laws, and I'm all for giving the cops some leeway on knowing them all. They just need to know the ones they plan on enforcing!!

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Some hindsight here.....If they would have notified the local Police Chief beforehand of their intentions (I know. They don't HAVE to...but, come on, what did you expect to happen?) it would have given him time to research the Laws, find out what goes, instruct his people to not over-react to the situation, and everything should have gone smoothly.

I disagree.

Do you call the police every time you intend to park in a legal parking space, just to let them know so they can look up the law?

Do you call the police before you leave your driveway to inform them that you intend to drive to work within the speed limit?

If I intend to engage in lawful activity, why should I have to forewarn the police that I am about to engage in lawful behavior? It's their job to enforce the law. If they don't know what the law says, it's their responsibility to find out BEFORE they arrest someone on false charges. I work in code enforcement, which is really no different than being a policeman with respect to building construction. When I review a set of plans or inspect a building under construction, if I can't show where in the code it says something is wrong ... I can't cite it. I may not like it. It may be shoddy and in some respects "sub-standard," but if it isn't a violation of the written word of the code ... it isn't a violation. No harm, no foul.

Police work is NO different. (Or ... should not be any different.)

 

[RecoilRob]

It SHOULD not be different....but, as we have seen, some people have been unfairly and illegally harrassed while doing a Constitutionally protected act.

Knowing in advance the high possibility of some ignorant authority causing a Major PITA, unless you are spoiling for a fight with the Police, a quick memo containing this http://paopencarry.org/downloads.html a couple of days in advance to the Locals should make your evening go more smoothly.

I know, you shouldn't need to do this. It is a shame that I even think this is a good idea. But, the OC events are supposed to be educational. Isn't a pre-emptive strike educational?

 

[Deanimator]

Mostly good eggs who can't be expected to know EVERY law...even those that are important to us!

YOU are expected to know EVERY law, and to face the consequences if you break one. To hold those charged with enforcing the law to a LOWER standard of behavior is sheer insanity.

 

[archie19]

I've been following this as it has happened, a member of PAFOA, and it goes way beyond simpley open carry. The police had a duty to determine if there was a problem as I believe four calls were made to 911 regarding men with guns. Open carry is legal in PA. These cops should have known that, if ignorance of the law is no excuse for citizens to brake laws, it's no excuse for LEO's to either. As they got to the resteraunt, they should have determined if any crimes were being/had been committed, which there weren't. They pretty much should have been done and gone at that point but instead violated numerous civil rights, search, seizure etc. I am NOT a legal expert, this is from info from others who were there.

 

[S4Lee]

Before anyone was even dispatched to the crime scene, the 911 operator should've asked "What are the men with guns doing?", at which point the callers would've said "Having dinner, talking to each other, and generally having a good time." There should've never been a reason to dispatch in the first place.

I'm going to disagree with RecoilRob as well. I've been somewhat envious of the PA gun laws, but I can't imagine filing an itinerary each morning with the police before I go about my business just because I want to legally OC a weapon.

 

[-C4-]

I'd really like to see the video tape from the wife.

 

[MechAg94]

I realize you shouldn't have to notify the police, but if your purpose for having these get-together's is to educate the public and police about the law and who that law abiding citizens can be armed, it would help that goal to notify police so that they are educated. Due to this confrontation, all the others at the restaurant now know that if they OC, they will get hassled and it isn't worth the trouble. Not the lesson you wanted.

 

[skywarp_]

Enemies of the constitution should be treated as such.

 

[AirForceShooter]

This is when you file a complaint with your State Attorney General.
And I mean a criminal complaint. This is a violation of State law.
Wouldn't hurt to call the newspapers too.

AFS

 

[Deanimator]

This is when you file a complaint with your State Attorney General.
And I mean a criminal complaint. This is a violation of State law.
Wouldn't hurt to call the newspapers too.

I believe that it has been reported that the principle victim has reported to the PA State Police that his firearm was STOLEN. I believe that as an FFL, he must also report this to the BATFE. Officer Lucy's got some 'splainin' to do...

 

[TEDDY]

police authority

I ask on this site where do the police get their authority from????seem simple doesn't it.try reserching it.I have asked others.a state constitution mentions selectmen may appoint a constable.other states may have other rules.can anyone point out a law.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Before anyone was even dispatched to the crime scene, the 911 operator should've asked "What are the men with guns doing?", at which point the callers would've said "Having dinner, talking to each other, and generally having a good time." There should've never been a reason to dispatch in the first place.

I agree, and I've made this point before. The "point man" for this type of thing should be the dispatcher. A "man with a gun" in a jurisdiction where wearing a gun is legal should not be cause to dispatch a patrol unit. The dispatcher should first ask, "What crime is being committed?"

If the answer is, "Well, I don't know but they're wearing GUUUNNNZZZ!!!" ... the dispatcher's response should be something to the effect of "Sir [or M'am], that's legal in this state. Call us back if they do something illegal. Have a nice evening. [click]" There is NO reason to dispatch officers for a report of unknown people engaging in lawful behavior.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i can't imagine a real life dept that would not send cops to check out a man with a gun call. i live across the river from a hunt club and we have lots of shooting from them as well as others we have new yankee neighbors who go nuts and wear out the sheriffs till they adjust or move.

 

[stephpd]

Dickson City

First, before the police got there the 911 call was changed to no complaint.
Second , this isn't the first time the LEO was guilty of harassing OC'ers. She had prior knowledge of the law.
Third, people on these boards are allowed by law to OC, in some states, and meet friends for dinner. It wasn't an educational experience for the public or the police though it's turning out to be.
Fourth, There is no national registry of guns,and having your gun taken because you don't have a receipt is illegal. As the guy is an ffl dealer he is required by law to report the gun stolen to the state and BATFE.

It really bothers me that on a board like this we have people suggesting that you inform the police that you are about to commit a legal activity.

As far as the video the state had determined, superior court judgment, that video taping of the police is legal. The police do it to us all the time.

Instead of the police responding to a call and seeing everyone just eating dinner and moving on she decided to play tough cop, start hauling patrons outside, and demanding compliance when she knew she was wrong but couldn't stop herself. Every LEO that was there as backup are required to enforce the law, even when it's one of their own breaking the law. That's why we call them LEOs.:banghead:

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Hey, the police have a very difficult, thankless job, and they're just following orders. Cut them some slack. I'm sure the police chief will conduct a thorough internal investigation of his own department, and if any wrongdoing is found, the people who were found to have done anything wrong will be severely put on paid administrative leave until everyone has forgotten about the incident. Because we, the individuals in society who are forced to give them their paychecks, the taxpayers, have the power to make that happen.

They were just doing their job and trying to keep people safe: do you hate the police or something?

-Sans Authoritas

 

[matt33]

I wasn't at this incident. However, based on what I've heard from the parties involved, I am extemely disturbed by the police response. The Chief of Police is still in posession of an illegally seized firearm. I know this from firsthand accounts from the chief and the man who was falsely arrested (FFL dealer). The PD told him he can have his gun back when he proves he's the owner. This would be like an officer confiscating your dog while you take him for a walk and then stating you can have the dog back when you produce proof of ownership. You broke no law and the cops take your property. Maybe they handcuff you and put you in the back of a patrol car for a while. It's that simple.

I used to be a police officer. I have a lot of respect and empathy for LEO's, but I find this incident to be an outrage. I did attend the Dickson City Town Council meeting last night and I was not encouraged by what I heard from city officials. They basically do not care about the OC'ers who were violated. In fact, they said their rights were being violated by being in a room with guns (accurate paraphrase).

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Matt, if you, in your current profession, were to do what those officers did, would you be sitting in prison right now? If so, why? And why aren't those officers sitting in prison right now?

-Sans Authoritas

 

[matt33]

I'm not sure why you're asking what you're asking, but yes, if I (as a private sector employee in the insurance industry) were to illegally detain and steal a firearm from a law abiding citizen, I'd be in jail. Side note- prison in PA requires a 2+ year state sentence. The police officers are not in jail because they are the police. They have discretion to arrest or not to arrest. However, to arrest someone, probable cause is required to believe that a crime has been committed. No crime was committed, and no PC existed.