Dickson City, Pa Police Harass Gun Owners

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The cop in PA that let her ego get away from her and ran herself down a path she couldn’t back out of (and that’s what I think happened) should be dismissed as a minimum.


sadly since they fired her once and took her back shes got a get outa jail free card. if they can her it looks like retaliation. i gotta go with the deanimator approach here. sue her personally till she runs away
 
I think the actions of this one (or several following her lead) officer should not impugn the entire force- or police officers as a whole. Yes, there are cop bashers here in this forum as there are citizen bashers over in theirs. As a media dependant society, we hear far more about the power hungry “bad” cops than the majority that slog through the criminal element day after day. When it’s something negative, it’s Officer X; when it’s something positive it’s a more impersonal “police” that saved the day. I’m thankful for the tremendous job the Tacoma PD does here in town, and I’ve worn their handcuffs for ‘mere open carry’. Guess what everyone? There’s buttholes in all walks of life.
The cop in PA that let her ego get away from her and ran herself down a path she couldn’t back out of (and that’s what I think happened) should be dismissed as a minimum.
I don't think anyone here is impugning police as a whole. Initially, my feelings were in line with your post. I attended the Dickson City council meeting regarding the OCB incident. To say that the council members were not concerned about the violations that occurred is an understatement. However, many of us here have carefully reviewed the facts and reports of those who were present at the incident in question. There is no excuse for this abuse. There's a disturbing pattern that has developed within this PD.
 
I think the actions of this one (or several following her lead) officer should not impugn the entire force- or police officers as a whole. Yes, there are cop bashers here in this forum as there are citizen bashers over in theirs. As a media dependant society, we hear far more about the power hungry “bad” cops than the majority that slog through the criminal element day after day. When it’s something negative, it’s Officer X; when it’s something positive it’s a more impersonal “police” that saved the day. I’m thankful for the tremendous job the Tacoma PD does here in town, and I’ve worn their handcuffs for ‘mere open carry’. Guess what everyone? There’s buttholes in all walks of life.
The cop in PA that let her ego get away from her and ran herself down a path she couldn’t back out of (and that’s what I think happened) should be dismissed as a minimum.
My town, Rocky River, OH, seems to have a good police force. My hometown, Chicago, has a police force that's nothing better than a third rate criminal gang. The difference is that people in Rocky River won't tolerate criminality, incompetence and violations of rights. Apparently, the citizens of Dickson City don't mind those kind of things. Well, if they won't rein in their own police force, it falls to people like PA Patriot to do so. When their taxes go up because of it, they can thank the Chief of Police and his officers. I hope they enjoy it.
 
The sheriff has nothing to do in this.

I kind of figured that; I mean the sheriff has jurisdiction over the city police (and probably over the state police.) If PaPatriot can't get any satisfaction from the city, maybe he should talk to the *sheriff* about pressing criminal charges against Officer WhatsHerName.

Next would be the state prosecutor, then the feds.
 
Sir,
In PA I am unaware of any jurisdiction the county Sheriff has over the Dickson City PD. Maybe there is something I'm not aware of, but that's my understanding. The PA State Police or even a federal agency would seem to be the one to take a report and pursue any criminal misconduct. I'm not that well versed in these matters and I could be wrong.
http://www.lackawannacounty.org/viewDepartment.aspx?DeptID=38
DUTIES OF THE SHERIFF
To enforce all orders of the Lackawanna County Court of Common Pleas
To serve bench warrants, civil writs and protection from abuse orders
To conduct levies, sales of personal property and real estate
To provide security and protection for court related functions and all county facilities
To transport prisoners to and from county, state and federal institutions for court appearances
To arrest violators of the law and fugitives
To assist other law-enforcement agencies in the county
To assist in special law-enforcement efforts such as Central Booking, DUI roving and saturations patrols and community events
To issue Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms and licenses to sell firearms
 
if the 7-11 clerk had a union he would be protected.and onceyou take a shot at getting rid of someone and fail its twice as hard next time if not impossible
 
Dickson City Council meeting wrap-up

Posted on OpenCarry.com

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/10896.html

Folks - thanks so much for the 30+ folks who came last night and stood up for freedom and the Constitution - we did this on only about 36 hours of notice. Just think what kind of turn out we could do with 96 hours notice!

The message I sent to national and PA gun rights leaders today is below, and summarizes what happenned and what needs to happen next - see talking points.

--


May 14, 2008


MEMO FOR: National and PA gun rights POCs:


SUBJECT: Update re Dickson City, PA Borough Council Meeting last night - Dickson City PA council obeys law, allows open carry, takes public comment


1. About 30 OpenCarry.org and PAFOA.org members converged on Dickson City last night to testify against police state style roundups of gun owners peaceably eating dinner last Friday. The City Council was told in no uncertain terms that they had better take action to get their police procedures up to date.

2. Gun owners open and concealed carry, based upon preference. No harassment by the City on this matter, despite veiled references to this by the police chief on radio/TV interviews during the day. At the meeting, the City solicitor confirmed that the Borough had no power to ban guns at Borough Hall, unless perhaps they bootstrapped its 'holding cell" as a lawful basis to do so - he did not look too confident on this.

3. Afterwards, about 8 of us retired to a local restaurant (Charlie Brown's) without any problem, except for the free desert the manager made us eat. All but one person was openly carrying.

4. Subsequent news coverage below.

5. Key talking points:

1. Police had no reasonable articulable suspicion to seize the gun owners, let alone demand IDs, search them, seize their guns, "run" their serial numbers, and in one case, refuse to return a gun to Rich Banks, a federal firearms dealer, because his gun's serial number was not found by police in any database. Again, this was a group of men, women, and small children eating dinner - all rousted by unlawful police action.

2. There is no gun registration in PA. But the police in Dickson City remain in confusion/denial over this issue of checking guns' serial numbers and seems to still think this should be done with an eye toward seizing guns if things don't "match." Hence, Katrina style gun confiscations may continue where police take your gun 'till you can prove you own it. Therefore, the PSP handgun transfer database should be destroyed as it just causes problems for law abiding gun owners.

3. Rich Banks still does not have his gun back. Rich is not just a federal gun dealer - he is also a right to carry permit holder and he did show his PA License to Carry Firearm permit to the police - but the police could not "verify" that he owned the gun thru their computer checks and demanded that Rich bring proof of ownership to the police before he could get his gun back.

4. Bad police procedure is good for criminals! As the seizures of persons and guns violated the Fourth Amendment, the police bumbled the encounter because had any of the guns or people turned up to be "bad," the evidence would have been suppressed. See e.g., Florida, v. T.L.; Arizona v. Hicks; Commonwealth v. Hawkins (Pa.).

5. Litigation possible. Litigation for violations for Fourth Amendment and other rights may be pending by folks who were seized by police and one gun owner's unarmed wife threatened with arrest if she did not stop filming. As I was not there, I am not a Plaintiff nor have any inside knowledge.

Mike Stollenwerk
OpenCarry.org
--

News coverage:

1. http://pahomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=25398 - video link embedded with me on the air yesterday.

SNIP

Organizations such as opencarry.org say these law abiding citizens were pulled from their dinner, asked for their "papers" and that personal property was confiscated.
[NOTE: on the video, the police chief is very confused - like almost states, there is no gun registration and so seizing gun owners to run ID checks and gun serial number checks made no practical, and even less legal sense - I got in a cite to Arizona v. Hicks.]

2. http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=8320639

3. http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=19687220&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=590572&rfi=8 w/video

SNIP

Contacted by The Times-Tribune, Lackawanna County District Attorney Andy Jarbola declined to comment on this specific case, but said people have a right to openly carry a weapon without having to show identification or a permit.

“Police can ask, but if they don’t want to give it, they don’t have to,” he said. “It’s going to be surprising to the public, but that’s the current state of law.”

4. http://pahomepage.com/media_player.php?media_id=15731 w/ 911 call played and ID refusal/arrest/gun seizure discussed.


5. http://wilknetwork.com/Open-Carry-People-Make-Their-Point/2185688

6. http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19698237&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=415898&rfi=6 - PA state rep for Dickson City supports open carry rights! But Lacawanna refuses to release 911 tapes

7. http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19699823&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=592269&rfi=6 - Philadelphia lawyer mistates law on duty of oepn carriers to carry & show ID on demand

8. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/11028-2.html - Scranton Times-Tribune Editorial slams "Dickson Dozen" and your right to open carry

9. http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=19699850&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=590572&rfi=8 ("Gun owners protest
A May 9 police incident spilled over into a Dickson City Borough Council meeting Tuesday, with gun-rights advocates alleging harassment by two police officers. The regular monthly meeting erupted into a full-blown debate on the Second Amendment, with more than 20 Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association members — many of whom were openly armed — arguing their right to carry a weapon in public. Police have yet to release a report of the incident in which a group of customers at Old Country Buffet were questioned about openly carrying handguns in public. At least one of those customers, Rich Banks, of Luzerne County, was detained for refusing to cooperate with police in regard to his concealed .38-caliber handgun.").

10. http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=19703654&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=590572&rfi=8 - one of the Dickson Dozen's attonreys says: "It sounds like a bad episode of Hogan's Heroes"

11. Police report: http://scrantontimestribune.com/projects/policereport.pdf
 
Paging El T:

The guys wife was video taping the whole thing in the parking lot and they threatened her with arrest if she didn't desist.

What's the general legal position on that kind of thing?

The first amendment allows you to videotape anything you want, without anyone's consent, as long as you are in a public place, or private space where you are not trespassing, where they have no "reasonable expectation of privacy." The law was broken by the police if they stopped her from videotaping in the parking lot.
 
As it stands right now, I'm thinking that the people involved should have seen this coming and been a little more understanding of the local Police force. Rather than trying to embarrass them, a sincere attempt at education might have been better for all involved.

With all due respect... WHA WHA WHAT??? They were eating dinner, minding their own business, and were rounded up and harassed by police, and one guy had his gun stolen BY POLICE.
I am all for respecting police, but when they act like this, they quickly move from respect to disdain in my book.
 
Quote:

The crap that flys in the USA would cause huge riots in most countries.

~~~~~

Yes, some of the bad stuff that flies RARELY gets much attention in our mass media that they call news (?!?) and IT would cause demonstrations, in some cases riots and/or immediate changes in those countries.

It is NOT un-American to question your government or any government 'official'.

Catherine
 
Quote:


Quote:
I'm a little confused about the "proof of ownership" the cops seem to think he needs to get his BUG back.
It's plain old-fashioned bullying behind a badge.

Do people normally walk around carrying proof of ownership of their shoes? How about their glasses? How about their jackets? Do cops ever demand people prove they own their watches? How about pens and pencils and shirts?

Frankly, I think that town's chief of police needs to be fired on the spot. Harsh? Yeah, maybe, but it would send a message to the cops on the street to operate within the letter and spirit of the law.
~~~~~

DISCLAIMER: I have never sued anyone or been in a lawsuit.

I agree with this and a lawsuit to take care of the policemen who have done this in the past to the present. They can get the one who complained about the TAPING of the INCIDENT while they are at it.

This is soooo VERY wrong.

Sometimes I wonder where these policemen (Politicians too!) get their education aka training and what propaganda that they are using in the training! WHO trained them and HOW were they trained?!

There are good and bad people in ANY profession anywhere but it seems to me that they have more control freaks OUT there lately along with the NWO control freaks in D.C. - both parties!

It is very sad to see this along with the gun grabbing in NOLA, other parts of the country and OVERSEAS by overzealous 'authority figures' and tyrants! TYRANTS come in all flavors and under all flags too.

Catherine
 
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I lifted this from the PAFOA site. Nice to know some people get it. A ‘thank you’ note to this writer might be in order.

This story was in the dispatch on sunday. The dispatch is circulated in the Pittston are.
May 25
Random notes on the news

by JACK SMILES - [email protected]

On Friday, May 9 about a dozen people from the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association (PAFOA) carrying guns in holsters had dinner with their families at the Old Country Buffet in Dickson City. One of the other patrons called 911. The police arrived, handcuffed one of the gun guys and took his gun. Turns out the cops were wrong.



Times Leader Photo Store

Until this happened I didn’t know that Pennsylvania is an open-carry state, meaning it is legal for persons who are not prohibited by law from owning guns to openly carry a handgun in plain sight with no license. “Openly” being the key word here. A permit is required to legally carry a concealed weapon.

Because I, and lots of other people including one lawyer I talked to, didn’t know that open-carry is legal, isn’t an excuse for the police not to know it and the Dickson City chief admitted he didn’t know.

But I’m not writing about this to criticize the police. I find this fascinating because it illustrates divergent ways of thinking.

Some people are horrified. They deride the gun-carriers – Who do they think they are, Wyatt Earp? What is this the Old West? This is Dickson, not Dodge City – like that.

On the Steve Corbett radio show, Corbett said that Philadelphia has a local ordinance against open-carry and that Dickson City and other towns should consider doing the same.

Then the Old Country Buffet put up a sign on the door. I’m not sure exactly what it said – that gun carriers wouldn’t be served or what – but it was an attempt to ban patrons from openly carrying guns in the restaurant.

Steve Corbett loved this because he believes that law-abiding citizens carrying guns made the restaurant unsafe.

I say exactly the opposite. That restaurant was never safer than it was for the hour or so that the PAFOA members were there having dinner. Criminals are mostly cowards, but they are not all stupid. They wouldn’t try an armed robbery in a place where a dozen law-abiding citizens are carrying guns.

That’s why, in my view, the sign banning guns is stupid. The sign might as well say: “Want to pull off an armed robbery. Come on in. We promise you’ll be the only ones with guns.”

And how is it that the Philadelphia ordinance against open-carrying makes Philadelphia safer than other parts of the state? Is Steve Corbett saying the safer place is the place where only the criminals have guns? Get it? Law-abiding citizens with guns are the problem, not criminals with guns.

It reminds me of Virginia Tech, which was by the decree of its administrators, a gun-free zone. Open-carriers and concealed-weapons permits holders were not allowed to take their guns on campus and were disciplined when they did. A bill was introduced in the Virginia state to allow permit-holders to carry guns on campus. When it was sidetracked, a Virginia Tech administrator cheered and said that students, professors and visitors would now “feel safe” on campus. And these people are educators?

As though Cho Seung-Hui, the VT killer, would stop and read a sign declaring VT a gun-free zone and then slap himself in the head and say “oh damn, I guess I can’t kill 35 people here today. I forgot this is a gun-free zone.” We all know how that worked out.

Who obeys laws? Who obeys rules? Law-abiding citizens.

All gun-free zones do, all ordinances against open-carry do, is guarantee that only the criminals and the nut-jobs will have guns.

One day I heard Corbett say he’s for big government because he doesn’t want airplanes to fall out of the sky. That’s the thing with the government regulation crowd. They think it’s the federal government that keeps air travel safe.

As though the airline companies would send their $50 million airplanes with 300 paying customers on them into the air when it wasn’t safe knowing full well that a crash would put them out of business. Remember TWA?

Are we supposed to believe that regulators from Washington know more about airline safety than the companies that built the planes and the companies that fly them?

Remember the election in 2006? Remember that, when we voted in the Democrats to take over control of the House and Senate. Let’s see 2006? Oh, yeah, I remember. Consumer confidence was at a 2 1/2 year high; gas was $2.30 a gallon; the unemployment rate was 4.5% and inflation was at historic lows. Here’s what House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said at the time, and I quote: “We will produce a common-sense plan to bring down the price of gasoline at the pump.”

Man, she’s a riot.

Three of our most pressing problems can be laid right at the feet of Democrats – gas prices, home foreclosures, and food price inflation. By blocking new drilling in Alaska and off shore and just about anywhere else they ensured our dependency on foreign oil and ensured that production remains flat. Then with their ethanol scam, they drove up food prices

Democrats can also take credit for the Community Reinvestment Act, a law which compels banks to make home loans in minority neighborhoods to people who were poor credit risks.

But let’s keep electing them and believing that the federal government has all the answers.

Here’s a question for Ed Rendell, who believes that Pennsylvania citizens are too hapless to take care of their own medical care. Ed, should the taxpayers of PA pay for the health care of a fellow citizen who loses $75 a week in one of your casino black holes?
 
The first amendment allows you to videotape anything you want, without anyone's consent, as long as you are in a public place, or private space where you are not trespassing, where they have no "reasonable expectation of privacy."

Uhmm, laws vary from state to state. You might want to check Penn. State Law(s) on videotaping/audiotaping to be sure.

In Ill. it is illegal to audio record (even if it is part of a video record, or in public, outside, or of police) without all parties involved knowing and agreeing to the recording.

I have no idea of Penn. state law, just know the 1stA does not guarentee the legality of recording.

NukemJim
 
Steve Corbett is a product of the extreme left-leanning nanny state'rs that want to curtail our right's for the good of the children and polar bears. He did a stint in the Santa Barbara Ca area that prides itself as such and same. I know from what I speak, being from that area before PA, a path he also has taken. I live minutes from Dickson City. As a matter of fact Dickson City is where all the shopping and basic support(restuarants, hardware, cars, etc) is for the NEPA area. Lots of liberals from NJ-NY area are moving in. It's cheaper, all-be-it slightly, to live here. They bring with them, they're attitudes and customs to an otherwize simple, hardworking, God fearing and YES, gun-toting people. We love our outdoors, not manicured lawns, and our hunting and fishing and all the other things us country folk enjoy. They are pushing hard, but we're pushing back.
kid
 
just did a quick search of the open carry laws in pa,they have no right to take the guns unless the person is a felon,or unless the poilse feel there is an imedate danger,and open carry doesent fall into that catagory

But given that the police don't care what the law is, and they seem to have the backing of the local citizens and the city council, how does one proceed? (hopefully with some kind of criminal investigation more-so than civil.)

"We don't like your kind around here" can be applied to a whole lot more groups than just gun owners.
 
funny howthere is a 10 day get your story straight between incident and the report i emailed chief asked why the incident wasn't on his website and he did finally get back to me with a lie about when it was put on site
 
RecoilRob: I know some local LEO's, and I'd wager that most of them DON'T know the Law's regarding Open Carry. And, I'd expect them to react just about the same way the Cops did when they received the 'gun' call the other night over east in our Commonwealth.

Some hindsight here.....If they would have notified the local Police Chief beforehand of their intentions (I know. They don't HAVE to...but, come on, what did you expect to happen?)

Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense. How many times have us civilians been told that? Yet the people who are sworn to protect and serve are held to a lower standard? What! How does that make any sense?

The fact that multiple officers did not know the law regarding open carry makes this even more egregious. If one officer had not know'n the law I would say give the officer the benefit of the doubt as they have a crappy job as is. But the fact that at least 7 more officers arrived when the original responding officer called for back ALSO DID NOT KNOW THE LAW is absolutely ridiculous. How can not one officer know that open carry is legal?

Also why should anyone have to notify the police chief when they want to have a get together at a restaurant? That just seems like a subservient attitude. If you open carry do you call ahead and inform your police chief of your daily movements? And you state that you know they dont have to but what where they expecting to happen? I think they were expecting to go out to the buffet with friends and their family and have a good meal. I dont think getting harrased by the police crossed their minds at any point in making their dinner arangements.
 
Go over to their website and read the WHOLE thread....they most certainly DID talk beforehand about that possibility. And, it would be a possibility around here too.

But, just think a second. If they had taken my suggestion and sent the letter beforehand, (with copies to their lawyer) do you think this would help or hurt their case in Court? I think help.

So, it either would have been no harm, no foul....or ammo for the harassment that would have happened anyway. No subservience here, my friend.
 
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