did cowboys have a real disadvantage?

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The biggest disadvantage of the Colt SA revolver in comparison with the modern DA revolver (actually available since approx. 1889) is the slowness of unloading. Each shell has to separately ejected. Imagine doing that under the pressure of a combat situation.
 
To address the original question - was a shooter armed with a SAA in the days of the "old west" at a disadvantage - I'd have to ask at a disadvantage to what?

From the time it was introduced - 1873 - until the DA revolvers and 1911s arrived the SAA was the state of the art. So, no, I doubt the SAA shooter was at a disadvantage.

Students of history (maybe it would be more proper to just call it revisionism today) should be aware that any such contests were decided more by the relative skill AND LUCK of the participants than by what kind of iron they carried. Just like today though, practice makes perfect and a gunslinger who practiced religiously had a definite advantage over someone who didn't.

btw, "World War I is at least one-hundred years too late for the time period" is hilarious, especially coming from a "senior level history student". You may want to review with your professors the state of the US in 1817. Then again, they probably think that's about when Hitler invaded VietNam. :D
 
As stated above, the cowboy was generally pretty cash poor. At the time that job was considered to be a low status one and didn't pay very well. While most cowboys were armed with something, it was seldom the newest or best. After the Civil War, surplus revolvers were cheap and plentiful. Rapid reloading was enhanced by carrying more than one cylinder for each revolver, and swapping cylinders. By that token, reloading the center fire SA revolver was slower than swapping the cylinder of the cap and ball.
For man killing, the double barreled shotgun was what was favored. Hollywood shootouts were extremely rare. Small cheap revolvers were available before the Civil War, knock offs of the Colt were imported often, just look at the time Colt put into patent infringement suits. Cheap European pin fire revolvers were also common. Domestic production of various cartridge derringers and revolvers was going full tilt by the 1870s, but their market was more urban, tho some cowboys carried one and two shot derringers as hide out guns. There were several companies in Belgium that did nothing but make cheap revolvers for the export market. In the days before modern medicine, the smallest and weakest cartridge could kill through infection and was thus feared.
 
this just made me realise that a tube with a spring in the back could be used to load a single action revolver. have some button to slide an end open and the spring forces the round into the cylinder(holding the tube inside the loading gate against the cylinder. then you just rotate they cyl. and the next round pop in. then after the last round a lil nub stops the spring. somebody make one of these QUICK!
 
I disagree that the slowness of reloading a single action revolver is its biggest weakness. I think the primary weakness of the design is the single action cocking action. This is slow and that slowness will be exaggerated by shooters who do not practice frequently. The shooter may be required to get several shots downrange as quickly as possible due to the inherent weakness of handgun rounds. Simply put, the terminal ballistics from handguns are so much lower than that of long guns that multiple hits may be required to stop the attack or attacks.

Double actions are simply superior in *defensive* applications. This does not mean an SA is not sufficient for defense; it just means there are different training requirements to meet the demands of today's goblins.
 
The indians are quite clear that they saw the soldiers "fighting with little guns" -- meaning using their revolvers. And it makes sense -- in the final hand-to-hand stages, a man would naturally abandon his single-shot carbine and use his 6-shooter.

It also indicates that firearms aren't the best last line of defense. His men were probably out of shape. As it stood, the Indians waxed them pretty good. But man, they shore looked purty....
 
The first post

I have reread the first post, and stand by my statement that the SAA type revolver was slow to reload.
If it was not at a disadvantge, we wouldn't have had the progress with revolvers we have now.
As far as the discussion on loading a Colt SAA with five or six rounds, I will defer to people such a Elmer Kieth who wrote about accidents happening with six loaded rounds. Simple accidents such as a sterrup hitting the hammer of a SAA while cinching up a saddle. This is with a cross draw rig.
My comments about slow reloading from cartridge loops with a revolver compared to a empty pistol I stand behind.
Loops are slow to access. A pocket full of cartridges are handier.
 
The army adopted the smith and wesson no-1 in .44 as the standard revolver till the 1873 colt came out. From what I can gather the 1873 was not that popular with troops used to the smiths, also did not help that the early colts had issues with not staying in one peice too. Probably the most popular thing on the range was the little 5 shot .32 and .38 pocket guns, a person could pick one up for under 3 bucks back then.
 
Reference a previous post, though a bit OT and FWIW, the pistol used by Princip to kill Archduke Franz Ferdnand and ignite WWI was a Browning, Model 1910, caliber 9mm Browning Short (.380), Serial number 19074. The guns used by the other three assassins were numbers 19075, 19120, and 19126.

Jim
 
Like most have said, a disadvantage compared to what? A Colt SAA is still easier to reload than a cap and ball revolver and more rugged than the open-framed open tops. That is what they were replacing.

Now is the SAA better than a modern double action, no probably not. Were I a cavalryman, I probably would have preferred to have a Schofield so I could reload it faster. Then I'd gin up a wooden speedloader like many people did.

But I would have greatly preferred to have a repeating carbine to either. That is what killed Custer's men. They were using .45-70 trapdoors that had good range but a crappy rate of fire. We now know that the Indians had rimfire repeating rifles and pistol conversions. They probably had cap and balls too, but those don't leave a lot of ammo for the archeologists to find. Once the Indians got within range, they could put up a much higher volume of fire than the cavalry. And if you got shot and went down there were a lot of Indians with clubs to make sure you never got up.

I actually doubt people carried many spare cylinders with a cap and ball. You can't change the cylinder out on a colt quickly enough and capped cylinders for any C&B are really dangerous. One good hit on the percussion cap and it will go off. And they probably didn't interchange any better then than they do now. They probably carried multiple pistols instead.
 
This doesn't have much to do with the SA revolvers "thing", but Custer could have had the Henry lever action repeating rifle at Little Big Horn, but chose NOT to.
Might have changed the out come!!!!
 
I believe the S&W used by the US Army was chambered for .45 Schofied. As a I recall one reason why the US Army liked the SAA more was its ability to fire either .45 Schofield or .45 Colt ammunition.

Custer's and his men's death has as much if not more to do with his own EGO leading them to destruction then what technology they had at their disposal. The SAA was the best single action revolver in a time when the single action revolver was king. Ease of reloading isnt the only thing to consider, the SAA was more durable, was chambered for a more powerful cartridge, had better handling characteristics and points as natural as any firearm every made.

Its no surprise that today the single action revolver is thriving with Freedom Arms, Ruger, US Firearms, Colt, Magnum Research and others with models ranging from the inexpensive Ruger Single Six to the precision custom sixguns of Freedom Arms.
 
My Grandpa was a deputy sherrif in the 1890's in Joplin Mo. and he told me he used what he could get. As would most men of law enforcement back then. He showed me his "shooter" as he called it when I was 10 and I was hooked on the gun wagon. I don't even remember what kind it was but it was one of the first cartridge guns. I think my cousin got it but I sure would like to own that little piece of history. Anyway, I think the men of the west used what they could get and took excellent care of it. By the way, screw Custer and his stupidity.
 
In thruth most firefights in the Cowboy days when the SAA was king were short enough to not need to reload. If you were fighting the "Indians" I guess they (the firefights) could last a while needing reloads and that is one reason Cowboys used multiple SAA revolvers and Winchesters. These could handle anything that could crop up in the desert in those days. These days the slower than modern way of loading a SAA is why no one carries one for police duty, or usually as a SD CCW peice. Now truth be told, when someone has to pull their CCW peice, the fight is over in a shot or two, so then it doesn't matter either. But if for some bad reason the fight lasted more than a few shots you wouldn't want a SAA in your hand, probably a HiCap auto.

Right tool right job I say. I feel that SAAs are very fun to shoot and in .45 Colt, very powerful so I tend to shoot mine for pleasure, and carry the 1911 with a 10 round mag and a backup 10 round mag.
 
I no longer have a SAA, but I used to shoot one quite a bit. They are really fun to shoot.

As to the comments, if you want proof that "stand in the street gunfights" were rare, go find that famous picture of Billy the Kid where he has is rifle at order arms and look at his holster (containing whatever sidearm he was then using). If you could perform a quick draw out of that leather horror, you are a magician — it was mostly designed so the pistol wouldn't fall out of it when you got on a barely broken-to-saddle horse (and he bucked).

In the 1950's, when Colt brought back the SAA, they had a guy (whose name I no longer remember) touring the country at fairs and rodeos giving fast draw demonstrations. He was pretty fast (to me anyway). He did the thing about asking you to stand in front of him and clap and he would draw when you started to clap and he could get his gun barrel between your hands. He gave an interview to a local radio station in Houston, Texas, and when asked if he was faster than some of the Old West gunfighters, he allowed as how he was pretty sure he was (and used the Billy the Kid holster example I quoted above). But then he went on to say that if faced by Doc Holliday, John Wesley Hardin, Billy or any of that ilk, he would be a dead man, fast or not — they were absolutely unhesitating killers and he was a trick shot artist.
 
And in fact the "quick-draw" holsters used by quick shot artists of the 20th century was in fact mostly a creation of the 20th century as few cowboys actually had holsters resembling anything close.

And I believe it Wyat Earp or Bill Hickock that said that if someone fanned their revolver they didn't bother to get to know him since he wouldn't be alive for very long anyway.
 
medievalmax,

Do you have documented proof of your statement that, "In 1835, the "Corps of Rangers," was created to murder Mexicans living within US borders disturb "Fandagos," and run any other non-whites out of Austin's frontier."? No doubt the Texas Rangers often meted out frontier justice in a ruthless manner, but they were just as likely to do this to whites as Mexicans and Indians. And, if you think that the Rangers were the only ones who were ruthless, you need to check out the history of Texas during that period a little more closely. Comanches and their allies, the Kiowa, and lawless bands of Mexicans and whites were all pretty bloodthirsty lots and had little mercy on their victims.

Tequila Jake
 
Cosmoline is right

Although western movies show every cowboy sporting one or two Colt Single Action Army revolver, the actual historical evidence overwhelmingly shows that they were quite rare on the frontier in the time period we now know as the "old west."

Consider that the modern revolver didn't really appear l until the 1850s. Colt's "Paterson" of 1836 was a commercial failure. The famous "Walker Colt" horse pistol of 1847 was great marketing, but very few were actually made, and they were "horse pistols" -- so big and heavy they could only be carried in pommel holsters on a horse. The first commercially successful revolver was the Colt model of 1851. It was followed by rapid development from both Colt and Remington of various models, culminating in the Colt 1860 Army and the Remington "New Model Army" that appeared in 1863 (and is erroneously referred to as the "58 Remington" because of the 1858 patent date on it). It wasn't until after the civil war that these revolvers began to show up in civilian hands, and then only because of surplus from the war, and surplus manufacturing capacity left over from the war years.

The winning of the west took place following the civil war in the "Indian wars" era that lasted roughly from 1865 to 1890 (and Wounded Knee, the last major battle of the Indian Wars). In the early part of that time, the dominant guns on the frontier were muzzle-loading shotguns and rifles. Rich men may have had a metallic cartridge long guns like Sharps or Remington rolling blocks. A few lucky souls might have had repeating rifles like the Henry, or the Winchester 1866 (Yellowboy) or 1873. Those who had revolvers generally had cap-and-ball sixguns like the Colt 1851 or 1860 or the Remington.

The first successful metallic-cartridge firing revolvers appeared in the early 1870s. Medievalmax is mistaken when he says:
medievalmax said:
Compared to the more recent models where you had the option of breaking the gun open, exposing the entire cylinder,
Actually, the very first commercially successful metallic cartridge firing sixguns were break-open designs. Smith & Wesson made them, and had the market to themselves until the Rollin White patent (on bored-through cylinders), that S&W controlled, expired around 1871. At that point, Colt and Remington could finally get into the game. Smith & Wesson had already been producing top-break revolvers for years by the time Colt introduced the SAA in 1873 and Remington its competing revolver in 1875. And in fact, the Colt wasn't available to the civilian market for several years later as Colt was selling its entire production at least through 1875 to the U.S. Army.

The U.S. Army did consider the S&W top break to be an advantage, at least for the cavalry. Major Schofield actually tested the S&W Model 3 and made several recommendations for changes that would make it better suited for use by cavalry, resulting in the "Schofield" model of 1873.

In practice, you can certainly reload a top-break revolver quicker than a soli frame design like the Colt or Remington, but only because you can eject the empties so much quicker from the top-break.

Double action revolvers weren't far behind, actually. Colt's first successful double action was released in 1877. There were double action cap-and-ball revolvers before then. I don't know when the first solid frame swing-out cylinder design came along, but I don't believe it would have represented a significant advantage over the S&W top break models that had been around since 1870 or so.

As for what the "cowboys" carried, the average cowboy (or vaquero, if you prefer) would have had a carbine, if he was armed at all. A repeating rifle like a Henry or Winchester (or later, a Marlin) was much more useful on the range than a revolver. Those that carried revolvers generally carried cap-and-ball revolvers or homemade cartridge conversions of them, because they were so much cheaper and easier to get than new Colts or Smith & Wessons.
 
medievalmax,

Do you have documented proof of your statement that, "In 1835, the "Corps of Rangers," was created to murder Mexicans living within US borders disturb "Fandagos," and run any other non-whites out of Austin's frontier."?

In 1835, Texas was part of Mexico. Under the terms of the orginal agreement with Spain and later ratified by the Republic of Mexico, the people of the Mexican State of Texas were obliged to maintain militia forces to patrol the frontier to prevent the Plains Indians from raiding deeper into Mexico.

Texas achieved independence in 1836 and after nearly a decade as an independent republic, was admitted to the Union in late 1845.
 
Actually, the very first commercially successful metallic cartridge firing sixguns were break-open designs. Smith & Wesson made them, and had the market to themselves until the Rollin White patent (on bored-through cylinders), that S&W controlled, expired around 1871.

Smith and Wesson pioneered the development of mettalic cartridges in the 1850s with the cartridge we call the .22 Short today. Their first revolvers were not break-open designs -- they had solid frames and the cylinder had to be removed to reload. Their first successful break-open large caliber cartridge revolver came on the market in 1870.
 
I don't know when the first solid frame swing-out cylinder design came along, but I don't believe it would have represented a significant advantage over the S&W top break models that had been around since 1870 or so.
It didn't. Smith and Wesson released their first hand-ejector model around 1896. They wanted to keep the quick reload of the top breaks with the stronger solid frame of competitors guns.

The same thing about revolvers can be said about most of the long guns too. The cartridge guns out west were much more likely to be a cheap break-actions like the H&R/NEF guns than an expensive Sharps. And there were probably a lot of shotguns you never see as well.
 
The largest technological mistake of the frontier era US Army was their stubborn refusal to formally adopt the lever rifle and drive its development. As far back as the troops procuring their own Henry repeaters during the Civil War, the lever operated rifle was showing that it was superior to the single shot battle rifles of the day for the average marksmanship displayed by the average soldier at the average combat distance.

The official knocks on levers were that they were delicate, wasteful of ammunition, and shorter in range and lower in power than the single shot rifles that were adopted for primary issue.

At least four Winchester 73 rifles have been found at the Little Bighorn sites. They were plenty lethal enough to be owned by the winning side of that battle.

Seems that fire superiority has been winning the day for as long as firearms have been shot into opposing forces. Why the Army never officially bought into the utility of at least mixing in the "assault rifle" of its day to its TOE has always mystified me a bit, especially for cavalry forces.

Dismounting to fight with single shot rifles seems to be just the recipe for eventually having to go to one's SA revolver in a desperate bid for more rapid defensive work.:rolleyes:

No one was disadvantaged by having a SAA-style handgun back in the day. Choosing poorly with one's long guns had way more potential for disaster.
 
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