did longmire get it wrong

[trackskippy]

Colt's early literature recommended (and the pistol was designed) to be carried hammer down with the chamber loaded, so it's not "wrong." Lever action rifles and single action revolvers were carried the same way for 40+ years before the 1911 was even a thing.

Condition 1 with the thumb safety on exists because the Army wanted it that way. Back in the horse cavalry days, you could engage the safety, keep the pistol in your hand, and still have one hand for your horse.

It may at one time not have been considered "wrong", but these days, its not considered "right" by most who carry one seriously.

Lever action and SA revolvers were carried that way because that's how you "safely" carry them. And usually taken to the next level too, by either an empty chamber on the rifles, and an empty cylinder under the hammer on the revolvers (at least that last part has been remedied for the most part these days). And that usually took more administrative handling after use to get them back to "safe" again too.

 

[doc hamer]

It may at one time not have been considered "wrong", but these days, its not considered "right" by most who carry one seriously.

Lever action and SA revolvers were carried that way because that's how you "safely" carry them. And usually taken to the next level too, by either an empty chamber on the rifles, and an empty cylinder under the hammer on the revolvers (at least that last part has been remedied for the most part these days). And that usually took more administrative handling after use to get them back to "safe" again too.

I carry my ssa with 5 only as suggested by the Duke. Times and opinions have changed especially concerning safe carry of firearms. Many thanks to those who took the time to respond and teach.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Once the gun is in hand, "all" the safeties are "off" and the gun is ready to go,

This has often been a point of heated debate among 1911 users. I can't think of any serious school that teaches that the thumb safety should be off as soon as it is "in the hand"

Cooper's Gunsite, often considered the temple of 1911 handling, teaches to not take/swipe the thumb safety off until it has pivoted from the vertical to the horizontal (toward the target)

 

[trackskippy]

By "in the hand" I was referring to basically what you're saying. It comes off on the presentation. To me, that is "in the hand". And it doesn't go back on until the gun is reholstered.

 

[9mmepiphany]

To me, that is "in the hand". And it doesn't go back on until the gun is reholstered.

Perhaps I'm taking your post too literally...there are many folks who swipe off the thumb safety as soon as they have a grip on the pistol while still in the holster or on the way out.

I'm not sure if your second point is literal either.
Do you literally mean completely in the holster?

I usually flip my thumb safety back up when I'm done shooting. Before I even start holstering...as holstering has statistically been the most likely action to cause a ND

 

[trackskippy]

I mean it stays off once its drawn and in your hand, and it doesn't go back on until you're "ready" to reholster. As I said above, that's when it goes back on and you let the grip safety out/engage while you reholster. I know some like to put their thumbs on the hammer too, but with the 1911's, a little pressure is all it takes to trip that grip safety by doing so, and now you have exactly what scares the Glock-phobic people to death, and in many cases, with a trigger that's even lighter and more easily tripped.

I wouldnt/dont put it back on until Im going to reholster. If you were to need to start shooting again, the chances of not taking it back off under stress are too great. At least that's how Ive always dealt with it. If its out of the holster and in my hand, its ready to go.

Im not opposed to safeties on a handgun, as long as you are constantly working with them in practice to the point of not having to think about working them, but I do think they tend to be relied on way too much and in place of safe handling.

 

[JeffG]

Funny how people carry their deer rifle in condition one, but are hesitant to carry a defensive/duty pistol in the same condition.

 

[bangswitch]

I suspect there is a typo here, because you can't carry an M9 with the hammer cocked and the safety engaged, because the safety is a decocker and when it is engaged, the hammer will drop.

Beat me to it

I could swear they had the hammer back when I passed through the gate and saw them. Years play mean tricks on an old brain. I should know better, I qualified with the M9 but never carried one, as aircrews were still issued revolvers. USAF is the only time I ever fired the Beretta, never cared to own one. I did have a S&W 459 for several years, with the same type DA/SA action.

 

[JTQ]

Once the hammer is down, Condition 2 is perfectly safe; the firing pin is inertial, so it isn't against the primer. Now the safety notch is another matter, if dropped hard enough on the hammer.

It doesn't matter where the hammer is, if the gun doesn't have a firing pin safety it is the inertial characteristic of the firing pin that is the problem. With the proper amount of force the firing pin can ignite a primer without the hammer making contact with the firing pin.

Drake Oldham drop test http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/drop1/drop1.htm

 

[halfmoonclip]

It doesn't matter where the hammer is, if the gun doesn't have a firing pin safety it is the inertial characteristic of the firing pin that is the problem. With the proper amount of force the firing pin can ignite a primer without the hammer making contact with the firing pin.

Drake Oldham drop test http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/drop1/drop1.htm

You're sorta missing the point; I was referring to a blow to the hammer. If the hammer is down on the frame, then that isn't an issue. If the hammer is in the 'safety notch' (there in case of a hammer slip), and is dropped on the hammer...the hammer gets a running start to smack the firing pin, perhaps imparting enough energy to fire the gun.
You're talking about a muzzle down drop, which is a different creature. In that case, you're right, hammer position doesn't matter.
Moon

 

[JTQ]

You're sorta missing the point; I was referring to a blow to the hammer. If the hammer is down on the frame, then that isn't an issue. If the hammer is in the 'safety notch' (there in case of a hammer slip), and is dropped on the hammer...the hammer gets a running start to smack the firing pin, perhaps imparting enough energy to fire the gun.
You're talking about a muzzle down drop, which is a different creature. In that case, you're right, hammer position doesn't matter.
Moon

I understood your point. You're commenting on the hammer hitting the firing pin and causing it to move.

My point is because the firing pin is inertial, all it takes is a blow hard enough for the firing pin to over come the firing pin spring, it doesn't matter where the hammer is, cocked or down. The hammer doesn't have to contact the firing pin. The only thing keeping a non-firing pin safety equipped 1911 from firing from impact is the firing pin spring. The hammer position has no bering on the outcome.

I make this point because by your previous post, some may come to the conclusion that a 1911 sitting in Condition 2 (regardless of the risk/danger of getting to Condition 2) is safer than a 1911 in Condition 1, with a drop or fall or impact. It isn't. Condition 3 is safer because there is no round in the chamber, but the firing pin can move, with enough impact, regardless of where the hammer is if you don't have a firing pin safety.

 

[FL-NC]

For me, either cocked and locked, or cleared and stored in the safe. The grip should be established prior to the pistol is exiting the holster. Our human opposable thumb is key to establishing this grip. Safety lever operation is easy to do with this grip established- thumbing a hammer or chambering a round, not so much. Lowering a hammer on a live round is very dangerous- countless accidents have happened doing this, so in additiopn to the bullet hole in whatever or whoever it was pointed at, these accidents often come with a thumb injury to the user. Lots of people are skittish about carrying a cocked and locked 1911, but I have no idea why. If this is the case, I would advise that person to switch to a different design. Carrying a cocked and locked 1911 or similar pistol is no different than chambering a round in, say, a AR15 or a shotgun and putting it on safe. The biggest difference is the hammer is internal on these guns, so if you are carrying with a round in the chamber (which I think everyone hunting or in a tactical situation does) there really isn't another option, other than round chambered and weapon on fire (extremely dangerous).

 

[Nature Boy]

Funny how people carry their deer rifle in condition one, but are hesitant to carry a defensive/duty pistol in the same condition.

Apples and oranges

Considering that most hunters are solo, the length if a rifle vs a pistol makes it less likely that you’ll be in a situation where you’re pointing it at yourself.

 

[halfmoonclip]

I make this point because by your previous post, some may come to the conclusion that a 1911 sitting in Condition 2 (regardless of the risk/danger of getting to Condition 2) is safer than a 1911 in Condition 1, with a drop or fall or impact. It isn't. Condition 3 is safer because there is no round in the chamber, but the firing pin can move, with enough impact, regardless of where the hammer is if you don't have a firing pin safety.

Understood, point taken. Moot for me, I never carry a 1911 of any sort, and it bears remembering that firing pin safeties are a good thing on carry guns. All of mine have such.
What I was trying to discourage was any hammer position that wasn't full cock, or all the way down.
Moon

 

[JeffG]

Apples and oranges

Considering that most hunters are solo, the length if a rifle vs a pistol makes it less likely that you’ll be in a situation where you’re pointing it at yourself.

If you need the time to rack a round or cock a hammer in the woods, the deer won't kill you. If you are pointing a gun at yourself and incur a discharge, you inappropriately have your finger on the trigger, and you need more training.

 

[Jim Watson]

My only experience with a lever action is CAS, where rifles are staged with magazine loaded, chamber empty.
There is little if any time lost to swinging the lever as the rifle is raised from the table to the shoulder.

 

[The Night Rider]

Looks like Starbuck is the smartest cop in Absaroka County.

Although one of the books explicitly states that Moretti carries an FDE Glock 45 and that's a 19

 

[L-2]

Here are my feelings/perceptions (right/wrong) regarding Walt Longmire.

I haven't read any of the Longmire novels.
I've only watched the tv series which probably deviate from the books to some extent.

Apparently, Walt Longmire's LE career dates back to 1972, after serving with the USMC in Vietnam.
With that info, it's entirely possible he got used to a hammer-down carry method.
I wouldn't know if the books talked about the hammer being down for his regular carry method (do the books address this?).

The books might take place generally in the years of publication (do they?) from 2004-2023, athough this means nothing as to how an "old-timer" might carry his 1911. Not all cops care to train or go with more current weapons techniques; and as the Sheriff, he can determine his own policies as to how one carries a 1911.

The 1911 has had its ups & downs in LE work with few departments making the 1911 general-issue, but with some departments allowing them as a personally-owned option if at all. Back in the 70s and 80s, the revolver was popular, with semiautos becoming standard-issue late 80s into the 90s (remember Beretta 92 series; S&W DA/SAs; 1986 FBI Miami shoot-out with a combination of semiautos and revolvers being used). Then the 2000s and the 1911 was making a come-back with today going to the double-stack 9mm 1911 (aka 2011 type). I'm guessing the "2011" desire is topping out, but doesn't mean any of these handguns are a bad choice for individuals.

Getting back to Walt Longmire, I don't see him as the guy to always be adopting the latest popular hand, more the opposite in terms of technology.

 

[doc hamer]

Here are my feelings/perceptions (right/wrong) regarding Walt Longmire.

I haven't read any of the Longmire novels.
I've only watched the tv series which probably deviate from the books to some extent.

Apparently, Walt Longmire's LE career dates back to 1972, after serving with the USMC in Vietnam.
With that info, it's entirely possible he got used to a hammer-down carry method.
I wouldn't know if the books talked about the hammer being down for his regular carry method (do the books address this?).

The books might take place generally in the years of publication (do they?) from 2004-2023, athough this means nothing as to how an "old-timer" might carry his 1911. Not all cops care to train or go with more current weapons techniques; and as the Sheriff, he can determine his own policies as to how one carries a 1911.

The 1911 has had its ups & downs in LE work with few departments making the 1911 general-issue, but with some departments allowing them as a personally-owned option if at all. Back in the 70s and 80s, the revolver was popular, with semiautos becoming standard-issue late 80s into the 90s (remember Beretta 92 series; S&W DA/SAs; 1986 FBI Miami shoot-out with a combination of semiautos and revolvers being used). Then the 2000s and the 1911 was making a come-back with today going to the double-stack 9mm 1911 (aka 2011 type). I'm guessing the "2011" desire is topping out, but doesn't mean any of these handguns are a bad choice for individuals.

Getting back to Walt Longmire, I don't see him as the guy to always be adopting the latest popular hand, more the opposite in terms of technology.

from what i recall one of the books did describe how walt prefered to carry his duty weapon with the hammer down. yes the series did make changes as they usually do. most likely to be more dramatic depending on the situation. just like cocking the hammer when the gun is ready to go. the intemidation factor i believe.

 

[The Night Rider]

Apparently, Walt Longmire's LE career dates back to 1972, after serving with the USMC in Vietnam.

Talks about the beginning of Walt's Career with the ACSD.

Lucian Connelly (A survivor of the Doolittle Raid) basically hired him off the street.

The books bear very little resemblance to the series and almost none to reality

 

[halfmoonclip]

A digression from manual safeties, many of us, even codgers like me, have become accustomed to only one control, the bangswitch. When the poo hits the fan, no safeties to disable, or re-engage.
Have a BodyGuard .380, a G42, a P365, and a Centennial for actually carry, for just that reason.
Moon

 

[doc hamer]

found two pictures of Colt .45 government
one with hammer back, one ith hammer foward (down)

 

[tarosean]

Although one of the books explicitly states that Moretti carries an FDE Glock 45 and that's a 19

To be fair, a Glock 45 is a 17 size frame with a 19 slide.

 

[JTQ]

To be fair, a Glock 45 is a 17 size frame with a 19 slide.

In fairness to the TV series, I don't think the G45 was introduced by the time the series closed.

 

[Old Dog]

Although one of the books explicitly states that Moretti carries an FDE Glock 45 and that's a 19

To be fair, a Glock 45 is a 17 size frame with a 19 slide.

So wouldn't that be a 19X then (or does the 45 come in FDE?). Having read a few of Johnson's books, it's clear he's not really a "gun guy" in the vein of, for example, Stephen Hunter, and his research never seems to go that deep.

The TV series, too -- first season, a murder committed with a rifle in .45/70 -- Longmire was able to discern that actual rifle (like there's only one rifle made for the .45/70 Gov't) and knew exactly who the only guy (in Wyoming?) that owned one was...