Well he asked...

[arthurcw]

http://www.imao.us/archives/007894.html/#comments

Posted by Frank J. at 01:17 PM |
Treat me right.
I finally have to ask: Am I wrong and the world right, or is there never a reason to manually cock a 1911?
I see it all the time in movies and TV and even recently saw it in a comic book (The Watchmen -- not a light afternoon read); people draw a 1911 and then cock it (the novel Cryptonomicon even had someone removing the safety and then chambering a round on a 1911 which I won't even get into how ridiculous that sequence that is). As I understand, you should never have the hammer down on a 1911 with a round in the chamber. Also, decocking a 1911 is awkward and should probably never be done with a round in the chamber (I have to use two hands to do it; one to hold down the grip safety and squeeze the trigger and the other to thumb the hammer). You either carry the 1911 with no round in the chamber or you carry with it cocked and safety engaged (and you can only engage the safety if the gun is cocked). Or you leave it at home.

Am I wrong?

He asked... so help the dude and all his readers out.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Do you need to hold down the grip safety to cock it? I haven't manually cocked mine in a while (not counting the Star PD which doesn't have a grip safety).
They are meant to be carried cocked and locked. Unless a gun is double action I think it's a bad idea. It's much quicker to rack the slide than cock the hammer on one of those things, not to mention you don't have to change your grip on the firing hand to accomplish.
I like IMAO. Funny site.

 

[Bruce333]

I see it all the time in movies and TV

There's his problem...you don't watch movies and TV to learn gun handling.

 

[RNB65]

You're probably going to get a variety of opinions, but in general either cocked-and-locked or chamber empty are the preferred methods for carrying a 1911. Most people strongly discourage manually manipulating the hammer with a round chambered.

 

[44AMP]

Cocking the hammer...

Is a dramatic action. In fiction, drama is important. Whether movies/TV/games, or written fiction, dramatic actions hold the attention of the viewer. It is popular in video entertainment today for characters to hold and point guns at others, and then to cock the hammer/rack the slide etc., to show that they "mean business". It is theater. Nothing more or less. It is not good gun handling. The authors/directors are not in the business of teaching good guns handling, they are in the business of making a product that sells, and it sells better if it is dramatic.

The 1911A1 pistol is intended to be cocked and locked if carried for use. But because there are people who are careless, or less manually dexterous than most, organizations who contain large numbers of people usually adopt a chamber empty policy inorder to minimize the number of accidents. The military cannot (and never has tried) to train ordinary soldiers to the level of skilled gunhandling that civilian enthusiasts often attain. It just isn't practical, and in their eyes would be a waste of time and money. Some police get high levels of training, while others do not.

The rules adopted will always be for what is the safest practical, considering the lowest skill level common.

I have no problem with a skilled "civilian" (amateur), as they do it for fun, and chances are that they have spent a great deal of time practicing what they enjoy, as opposed to someone who carries a gun only because it is their job.

FYI, in over 40 years of gun handling, including several years as an Army Small Arms Repairman, I have never met a properly functioning 1911 that I could not lower the hammer with just the shooting hand. I choose not to do this on a loaded round, as there is no need. If the gun is to remain loaded (chamber), set the safety lock (thumb safety) and control the muzzle. That's all there is to it.

 

[Gator]

Carrying in "condition two", round in the chamber and hammer on half-cock, would necessitate cocking the hammer.

I'm NOT recommending "condition two"! It is unsafe.

 

[Titan6]

Condition 2 is also slower to bring into play for me. Besides being safer it is easier and faster to thumb the safety than to cock the hammer. But then I don't have to go on TV much either.

 

[Big Calhoun]

I've read two different schools of thought on this subject.

One opinion is that the 1911 is made to be carried cocked and locked and not having the hammer back can actually be bad for the weapon.

Then, I've also read that newer 1911s are still made to be carried cocked and locked, but are less picky about being carried with a chambered round and the hammer up.

Since the consistent answer is that 1911s are made to be cocked and locked, this is how I keep my Kimber 95% of time....well cocked, the holster won't let me engage the safety.

 

[66912]

Just curious, Why is it bad for the weapon itself (Mechanically?) to keep a round in the chamber with the hammer down? I carry my high power this way and have always practiced cocking the hammer with my thumb as I rise to my sight picture. I have been working my high power this way for almost 18 years with no issue and by now, the habit has become innate behavior. Last year I finally purchased a 1911 (Colt CCO). I have only carried this weapon a few times, but I have followed suit with the same methods used with the high power. If I am causing damage to the weapon I would really like to know. Thanks for any help you can give.

 

[AndyC]

I've never believed that it's bad for the weapon per se as much as it is 1. bad practice and 2. gives a beginner a false sense of security. Pistols have (apparently) discharged by being dropped on the muzzle - on impact, the firing-pin slams forward, hitting the primer of the chambered round which fires (which is why Colt came out with a firing-pin block starting with their Series 80 pistols).

The only time I thumb back a hammer is to test the trigger-pull on a pistol.

 

[Glockman17366]

My only ND with a 1911 was decocking the trigger. I used to prefer to keep the gun with one in the pipe, hammer down. This is when I used the 1911 as my house gun (I don't carry 1911's).
Well, learned my lesson...if there's one in the chamber, the safety is on...cocked and locked.

 

[Big Calhoun]

My CHL instructor taught me an easy-peasy way to decock a 1911. I've been doing it ever since with no worries at all. Hopefully I can explain this right...right handed instructions....

Basically, hold the 1911 with your right hand, grip safety depressed, finger clear of the trigger. You're going to point it in a safe direction, with your left arm above and parallel. Using your thumb and point-finger on your left hand, grasp the hammer. Now, depress the trigger and guide the hammer back into the up position. Safely decocked.

Now, I'm assuming all 1911s have a 'skeleton' hammer with the cutout in the center which is essential to getting the grip. I wouldn't dare try this method with any of my other SAs that have solid hammers.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

If you guys want to start a REALLY big argument, ask this question over at 1911Forum.com.

Meanwhile, I'm moving this to Handguns; Autoloaders.

 

[Outlaws]

(I have to use two hands to do it; one to hold down the grip safety and squeeze the trigger and the other to thumb the hammer)

I found you can pull the hammer back a hair more, then the grip safety will go in, and the hammer can be let down with just the trigger and not having to awkwardly push in the grip safety.

I only do that when I empty the pistol.

 

[HammerBite]

I found you can pull the hammer back a hair more, then the grip safety will go in, and the hammer can be let down with just the trigger and not having to awkwardly push in the grip safety.

This is by design in a true 1911-pattern pistol. In Browning's February, 1911 patent he talks about how he purposely designed the grip safety so that it would be disengaged by overcocking the hammer, thereby enabling one-handed decocking.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Are 1911's at risk for an AD by having the hammer down on a live round? It may be gun-rag lore but I've heard the story of a detective who was carrying a stack of files and put his 1911 (in it's holster) on top of the stack with the hammer down on an live round. Gun slid off stack, fell hammer side down and went off when it struck the ground, discharging the round which happened to be pointing at his head at the time.

 

[Steve C]

Are 1911's at risk for an AD by having the hammer down on a live round?

The 1911 has an inertial firing pin that does not protrude past the bolt face when the hammer is down. The firing pin is spring loaded and takes a hit from the hammer to drive it hard enough to overcome the spring and hit the primer hard enough to fire a round. The 1911 has always passed the government drop test which is a drop of 8' to a hard surface without firing. You can pound on the hammer all day and never will be able to set the gun off.

In the 80 series, Colt added a firing pin block that prevents movement of the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled.

Some of the 1911 copies, the Lama an other Spanish manufactured pistols do not have the inertial firing pin and if the hammer is down the firing pin extends past the bolt face and rests on the primer if the hammer is down. These pistols will indead discharge if dropped and the hammer is hit.

 

[Lew]

There is no reason to manually cock a 1911. There is no reason to EVER have the hammer down on a charged chamber. That is just plain dangerous.

 

[HammerBite]

There is no reason to EVER have the hammer down on a charged chamber. That is just plain dangerous.

If I were to ever have a dropped M1911 land on its hammer I would rather have the hammer down on the firing pin stop than on the safety or full-cock notch. Hammer notches and the sear can fracture -- the firing pin stop isn't going to go anywhere, it is backed up by the slide.

The advantages of cocked and locked are that it eliminates the need to decock (assuming that the hammer can slip while doing so) and the gun is faster to get into action.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The 1911 has an inertial firing pin that does not protrude past the bolt face when the hammer is down. The firing pin is spring loaded and takes a hit from the hammer to drive it hard enough to overcome the spring and hit the primer hard enough to fire a round. The 1911 has always passed the government drop test which is a drop of 8' to a hard surface without firing. You can pound on the hammer all day and never will be able to set the gun off.

This is correct, but I feel it is worth mention that direct-loading the chamber of a series 70 type action (no firing pin block) can result in a slam-fire.

 

[10-Ring]

On the right firearm, w/ the right training, condition one is always the preferred mode of carry vs. cond 2.

 

[kcmarine]

Well, I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but when I use a 1911, I first draw back the hammer and then pull back the slide. I was told this relieves tension on the springs. Though I severely doubt that's why they do it that way in the movies. Probably a dramatic effect, like the others said.

 

[Glockman17366]

"Well, I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but when I use a 1911, I first draw back the hammer and then pull back the slide. I was told this relieves tension on the springs. Though I severely doubt that's why they do it that way in the movies. Probably a dramatic effect, like the others said."

That would take too long if you were in a self defense situation...better to just rack the slide.
However, when I use one of my 1911's for the house gun, I do cock the hammer and engage the safety. The cocked hammer does make it easier to rack the slide.
But, if I was going to carry a 1911, it would be locked and cocked...and I'd probably carry in a holster that has a retention strap.

 

[Working Man]

I found you can pull the hammer back a hair more, then the grip safety will go in, and the hammer can be let down with just the trigger and not having to awkwardly push in the grip safety.

That is the exact way I do it on mine and as you have stated only on an
empty chamber. I have not had it slip as of yet and doubt it would but not
willing to take the risk.

 

[Walkalong]

One more vote for "no reason to manually cock the hammer".