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Did the Founding Fathers Sell Us Out?

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I've been reading Boston's Gun Bible (updated version). An outstanding book jammed full of great information.

Probably the most shocking info in the book is the author's contention that many of the Founding Fathers weren't all that gung-ho about guaranteeing our individual rights (many at the Constitutional Convention didn't want a BOR in the document). His opinion is that the 2nd Amendment was left vague to allow government regulation of the right. He believes that the way the 2nd Amendment was worded forever, and intentionally, clouded the subject.

Boston T. Party has written a whole book on the subject that I haven't read yet.

If anyone knows of an Internet source where I could read about this, I'd appreciate it.

PR
 
Apparently Mr. Boston chose to ignore many period quotes that are enormously popular in sigs here on THR.
 
It's easy to forget that the founding fathers were not of one mind. They had to compromise just like today. If the Second Amendment is nebulous, it's because they had to get enough states to ratify it.
 
Also once the founding fathers had to go about creating a real working government they found out why the British had those rules in the first place. For instance:

  • George Washington was the only president to physically lead the Army as Commander-in-Chief. He did this against American citizens during the Whiskey Rebellion. Note that this rebellion was created by America's first "Sin Tax" on whiskey.
  • John Adams passed the Alien and Sedition Acts during the USA's undeclared war with the Barbary Pirates which highly regulated freedom of speech.
  • Thomas Jefferson, after arguing against a strong military for most of his life, reauthorized the improved navy created by Adams and created West Point.
 
many at the Constitutional Convention didn't want a BOR in the document

I was under the impression that the BOR was a requirement to get the states on board. They were added as amendments after the body of the Constitution was created to placate folks who thought the rights should be spelled out instead of implied.

Chris
 
The people commonly thought of as the 'Founding Fathers' were not the same people who wrote the Constitution. Some were there, but many others (including many of the most fervently pro-freedom individuals) were not.

Some elements that concerned people when the Constitution was ratified, that have become huge nightmares today:
Federal treaties overrule state and local law (look at the EPA)
The vague wording of the 'necessary and proper' clause
The vague wording of the 'general welfare' clause (which allows virtually unlimited taxation)
No popular check or balance against the judiciary

"We have probably had too good of an opinion of human nature in forming our confederation. Experience has taught us, that men will not adopt and carry into execution measures the best calculated for their own good, without the intervention of a coercive power." - George Washington to John Jay, August 1, 1786

"I look upon [the Constitution] as the most fatal plan that could possibly be conceived to enslave a free people." - Patrick Henry, speaking the the Virginia ratifying assembly in 1788


Anyone interested in the Constitution should definitely read Hologram of Liberty.
 
Saying that they didn't WANT a Bill of Rights is incorrect.

Most of those who opposed, or were ambivilent toward, spelling out a list of individual liberties did so because they either:

1. Felt that the Constitution was already sufficiently strong to protect the individual's rights, or

2. Were concerned that spelling out specific individual liberties could actually curtail those liberties by establishing a precendent that hey, if it's not specified on the list, it's not protected.

3. Felt that since the states were the true bearers of the power in the Constitutional system that the specific protected rights were up to the individual states to define. In many cases, this had already been done in the states, such as Virginia's Declaration of Rights, adopted on June 12, 1776, and authored by George Mason.

Madison was, apparently, in the first camp for some time, but changed his position for any number of reasons.

Primarily among these was the necessity to court the support of very powerful, and very influential, Virginians who would have to approve it in the state legislature. Primary among these individuals were Patrick Henry and the aforementioned George Mason, who between them had more than enough influence to kill the Constitution, not only at the state level, but also at the national level.

Mason, a delegate to the Convention, declined to sign the document when all was said and done, which made Madison REALLY worry about its ultimate approval. Some claim, I think rightly so, that it was Mason's refusal to sign the document that made Madison strike the bargain that would result in the writing and adoption of the Bill of Rights.

Two states, Virginia and Pennsylvania, were absolutely critical to the Constitution's ultimate passage nationally. Had either state voted it down, it's likely that the Constitution would have failed nationally.
 
As for the Founding Fathers and who was and wasn't present at the Convention, I don't necessarily think that that's much of a consideration at all.

The men who voted the Declaration of Independence in 1776 and the men who voted the Constitution in 1787 were largely of the same mind in the grand scheme of things -- to create a viable, progressive nation in which government ruled at the behest of the population.

Ultimately, though, two of the four most important revolutionary Founding Fathers WERE at the Constitutional Convention -- George Washington and Benjamin Franklin.

Washington apprently never said a word during any of the debates. He didn't have to. His power and respect were such that if he were to walk out of the meeting, or utter one word of criticism, it's likely that the Convention would have collapsed.

In many ways Franklin held the same kind of power. He was America's senior diplomat, scientist, philosopher, etc. He may not have been liked by everyone at the Convention, but there's no doubt that he had every one's respect.
 
lapidator - Very true - and we should make sure not to treat them as if they were perfect.
 
Interesting thread! When discussing things that are somewhat newer in concept it's usually a good idea to get terms and definitions squared away early.

The "Founders" are the ones who initiated a national government. This was styled as a "Confederation" under the "Articles of Confederation". This was America's first constitution.

The "Framers" are a group of 39 men who gathered a Philadelphia behind closed doors and gave us the "Constitution of the United States of America" These men, led by Hamilton, Madison and Jay were NOT known as "Federalists" for they were not "Federal men". They were known as "Consolidationists" because their plan of government cosolidated power in the hands of the national goverment. The "Federalists" were the men who supported the "Articles of Confederation" (AoC). These men were labeled by the "Consolidationists" as being ANTI-federal. Unfortunately, that name stuck and they are still today referred to as the "Anti-federalists". These men were Patrick Henry, George Mason, Elbridge Gerry and Thomas Jefferson when he returned from Paris.

In the AoC no need was found to enumerate rights due to the fact that the national government had no say in the internal affairs of the states. This is the concept of the "States Rights" doctrine. In the constitution, due to egregious accretion of political power to the proposed central government, the states thought it good that there should be a bill of enumerated rights that would serve as a check on the central government. This "Bill of Rights" (BoR) originally had 12 articles. This was later trimmed to 10 and was edited to the form that we have now. It was in this editing that the enumerated rights were diluted. Once the BoR was completed the remaining states of the 9 needed ratified the constitution as the new form of government for the United States.

Of course, this is but a very brief synopsis. The many details, political game playing, the actual debates and the endless rhetoric make this perhaps, the most interesting story regarding the birth and development of this nation. Form one perspective the constitution is hailed as a milestone, a great leap forward in the governance of man. From another perspective the initial freedoms, liberties and rights of all Americans were usurped by a gang of brigands who sought to enslave Americans once again with a near monarchial type of iron-fisted rule.

The lingering ideals of America such as liberty, freedom, secured rights, the philosophies of John Locke, Adam Smith, states rights, a limited government and so on are all a part of the "hangover" of the AoC. These ideals are neither embodied nor enshrined in the constitution. Yes. They are mentioned in the constitution. However, it must be made clear that the language of the constitution DOES NOT support these American ideals. The language of the constitution DOES support what we live under now. Many of the laws, regulations, policies and court rulings that we live under now are, in fact, 100% constitutional. What many patriotic people and lovers of America today believe to be are unconstitutional laws and such are basing their judgments on the "hangover" from the AoC. These are the ideals that we have heard about in school, that we have "absorbed" by reason of culture. These are now the myth of America under the constitution.

Please, remember, the BoR is simply an addition to the constitution. The actual powers of the government are found in the body of the constitution itself. If you only know the Bill of rights, then you only know not even half of the story. The Bill of Rights CANNOT be understood in America without a thorough working knowledge of the constitution. This does not mean that you need to be a constitutional scholar. This simply means that you DO need to know how the clauses of the constitution interplay with the articles in the Bill of Rights.

The writing of the constitution and it's subsequent ratification IS the true American Revolution. This coup had the several states sell out their sovereignty and their citizens freely, without a shot ever being fired. As a matter of fact, the 39 brigands in Philadelphia NEVER even had the authority granted to them by their respective states to engage in the development of a new form of government. To make matters even worse, Hamilton was NEVER even a delegate. He simply took it upon himself to insinuate himself into the proceedings and usurped the guidance of the convention with the purpose of adopting the constitution. With his invented crisis of a looming national bankruptcy and the intimations of an impending and subsequent invasion by their creditors, France and Germany. The war weary nation was ill-prepared to fully consider the magnitude of what was being proposed in the new constitution. This compounded by the fear of bankruptcy and a subsequent invasion by creditors cowed the people into accepting their new chains. Though there was formidible resistance by the so-called anti-federalists, it was not enough to stem the tide.

It was these "anti-federalists" who quite accurately predicted what we would be living under today. The tyranny, the taxation, the quest for empire and even the war between the states were all foreseen by the anti-federalists.

Today there is growing move to get re-acquainted with the ideas of the anti-federalists and even to re-draw the Articles of Confederation to have them "handy" in the event that the US will again separate into it's component states or regions. For further inquiry there is "The Anti-Federalist Papers and the Constitutional Convention Debates" by Ralph Ketcham; "Hologram of Liberty" by Kenneth Royce (Boston T. Party) as mentioned by Chris Rhines. On the web: http://www.iahushua.com/hist/AntiFED.html
http://www.ismellarat.com/
http://www2.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/foliocgi.exe/historic/query=[group+489+u!2Es!2E+189!3A]^[group+citemenu!3A]^[level+case+citation!3A]^[group+notes!3A]/doc/{@41}/hits_only?prev
http://www.glprl.org/cr/edu/documents.html
http://www.project-exodus.org/

Of course, the many writings of Locke, Smith, Etienne de la Boetie, Thomas Paine and others which are directly linked or connected to the actual founding of America and the Articles of Confederation. There are also many other sources such as Lewrockwell.com, the Mises Institute, Cato Institute and others who still espouse the the philosophies and doctrines of freedom, liberty and and right to pursue property.

Chipper
 
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