difference between primers?

[lord1234]

So recently with the primer shortage, i'm "taking what I can get". I'm also a new reloader so I've seen some people rave about CCI primers and Winchester primers. People usually have a preference. However, when looking at a recipe, there are NO specifications for which primer to use.

Is there a difference?

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Yes there is. So, when you switch primer brands, if you are anywhere near the top of the listed powder charge weights, you start over at a lower or preferably the lowest charge weight and re-work the load.

 

[rcmodel]

However, when looking at a recipe, there are NO specifications for which primer to use.

I don't know what recipes you are looking at, but:

Every reloading manual I own tells me exactly what brand & type of primer was used in the load development in the data.

Do you use a reloading manual?
Or something else?

rc

 

[Bart B.]

If you use the same primer, bullet, case and powder found in loading data, chances are about 1 in a million you'll get the same muzzle velocity they did. That's 'cause your components aren't from the same lot they used and your barrel's different. The impact force your firing pin has might be weaker than what they used and that will mean a lower muzzle velocity even if everything else matched theirs exactly.

Start low then work up to where max pressure signs appear. Stop there and go shooting.

 

[ADKWOODSMAN]

I just looked at five loading manuals on my desk and they all list the primer used with the loads.

Most magazine article do also.

 

[USSR]

If you use the same primer, bullet, case and powder found in loading data, chances are about 1 in a million you'll get the same muzzle velocity they did. That's 'cause your components aren't from the same lot they used and your barrel's different.

+1. And, what a difference a barrel makes. Using the same exact load in two .30-06's with 26" barrels, I get 2950fps in one, and 2875fps in the other.

Don

 

[deacon8]

Bart B,

How could the impact force of a firing pin even remotely affect velocity?

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Deacon8-

Pretty easily actually. Depending on how violently the primer is stuck, it can effect how violently the primer reacts. This in turn can effect how well the powder is ignited.

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

lord1234, you may not be seeing the data for the primer. It's there in the manuals. (No, not the internet pages. In the books.) Look at the first part of cartridge make-up where it lists the gun/barrel used and dimmensions of the case. My Nosler, Speer, Sierra and Hornady manuals all list what primer is used. You may be expecting to see that right were the powder charge listings are. Sorry, that's not where it's referenced.

Preference for primers can be much like the Ford vs Chevy disputes. But there are some characteristics for a couple of them. I've shot Remington primers, CCI, Federal, Winchester and probably some others over the years. I know a lot of people that like Wolfe primers. Two things that stand out; CCI are known to be a bit harder than others. Guns with weak hammer springs and such could be susceptable to the occasional misfire using them. Federals are known to be the softest of the bunch but are also known to be slightly oversize. Using them in progressive presses may present challenges if using brass that has not been used with Federal primers before. The rule is that you don't mix magnum primers for standard primer loads without re-working the load. -And most will advise not doing that at all, yet Winchester LPP are used for standard and magnum loads.

There are differences. Use what is listed in the books for a particular recipe.

-Steve

 

[Slamfire]

How could the impact force of a firing pin even remotely affect velocity?

And it effects on target accuracy. I took an A3 to the range with its 60 year old mainspring. Fired a group. Then I installed a new Wolff mainspring. The group size shrunk. By a lot.

If I can get new mainsprings for old guns, I do. I like having a hard wack on the primer.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Slamfire-

That's because the new spring had enough force to hit the primer hard enough to ignite it properly.

 

[Bart B.]

Deacon8 asks:

How could the impact force of a firing pin even remotely affect velocity?

Some posts have already answered very well. Primers detonate more the harder they're smacked. Practically all the high power competitors classified master or higher change their firing pin springs every year or two.

The first thing I've noticed when firing pin springs get weak is the same load at long range needs a bit more elevation on the sight to strike center. Lower primer detonation means lower powder burning intensity and that makes bullets go away a tad slower. Older competitors told me years ago they noticed this more often with the .30-06 compared to the .308 Win as its shoulder had a lesser angle and smaller shoulder diameter that didn't hold up to firing pin impact as well as the .308 does.

Sometimes this situation gets mixed up with when a barrel's wearing out. As the leade erodes and presents less resistance to the bullet starting out, peak pressure drops a bit taking muzzle velocity with it. I've noticed a 1 MOA come up or more on the sights at 600 yards is needed for the same lot of powder behind 190's after getting close to 3000 or so rounds have gone through my Hart barrels.

 

[deacon8]

I just checked back to this post...seems you guys don't understand how a primer "goes bang." A primer does not burn. Rather is explodes, much like c-4 and dynamite. A "force," setting a primer off, is not going to increase or decrease the amount of explosion it has...it only has so much to offer. Powder, however, does generate different pressures (i.e. velocity) due to burn rates. This is impossible with primers.

I know primers...I assemble primers for a living and our factory produces several million a day.

My previous post was maybe too blunt to be seen as a REAL question of your actual knowledge on the matter. However, a firing pin cannot alter velocity.

 

[~z]

deacon, Do me a favor, quit postin and go make more primers! I'm getting low.

~z
PS pm me and I'll send you my address so you can send me the floor sweepings or any "extras" you find laying around.

 

[deacon8]

You got it Z.

I'm going to bed (I work nights...). I will do so tomorrow though (today I mean).

It still blows my mind of how many we make and how many of you guys are needing them.

 

[The Bushmaster]

There ya go deacon8...Still jackin' yer jaw and I just went through another 300 primers...

 

[P51D]

Deacon8 - it sounds like you might be in a good position to comment on some of the rumors about the cause of the primer shortage. I hope I'm not putting you on the spot; I do hope you can shed some light on the topic.

I did a search for any previous posts by you on the topic, and saw your Feb 21st post. From that post, it sounds like your company is making a lot of primers; running OT, fully staffed, etc..

Is that all still true?

What about rumors of layoffs?

Some have even suggested the current administration is "pressuring" the primer makers to cut back and sell only to the military, or risk losing military contracts (ridiculous, IMHO). Any thoughts on that?

What do YOU think is causing the shortage?

Do you think things are getting better or worse?

Any other thoughts?

THANKS

P51D

 

[The Bushmaster]

Hey P51D Leave him alone. He has work to do...

P51D...Hummmm A mustang...

 

[~z]

deacon8 looks so cute when he is sleeping...sweet dreams, I hope you wake up well rested and ready to GO MAKE ME SOME DANG PRIMERS!!!
~z

 

[P51D]

Good point, Bushmaster! I wasn't thinking.

Deacon8, you rest up now, OK? Make sure you get 3 squares, and eat your veggies; and be careful out there, we don't want you getting hurt or anything.

Keep up the good work.

P51D

 

[Wildyams]

lord-
I'm new to reloading too and I wondered the same thing. Then when I took a closer look at my manual it did say what primer to use, at the beginning of the section about that caliber there should be a picture with all the measurements on it, then below it it listed what their test gun was for the velocities and in there it lists what brand primer they were using.

 

[~z]

Deacon, you make me any primers yet?
~z

 

[Bart B.]

I think deacon8 would detonate himself if he ever watched a high speed video of any explosive detonating. For example, a cube of C4 or TNT starts to bulge at their flat surfaces sucking in their corners. Then fracture lines appear and smaller parts fly off. In a few microseconds the cube is obscured by fumes and fragements.

Such videos last 5 or more seconds when viewed at understandable frame speeds. Proof to me that there ain't no such thing as "instant" detonation.

When a friend tested primers in 17 Rem cases with pockets bored out to hold large rifle ones and no powder shooting BB's out the barrel through chronograph screens, it was clearly visible that their average velocity changed with make and model of primers. Such a simple test. Those with the lowest average velocity typically shot the most accurate in larger bore rifles.

If deacon8 really does make primers, does he ever get his recreational ping pong paddles mixed up with his primer slurry ones? I can imagine what would happen if he smacked one of those white balls with a slurry paddle with a bunch of dried compound on it. Goodbye ping pong ball!!!

 

[deacon8]

Bart B,

You are correct. There is no "instant" detonation. However, if you had several pounds of primer mix (or compound), it would similar. However, if you had a hunk of c-4 the size of a primer charge, it would not blow up MORE if you increased the electrical charge to it. In other words, if you hit a primer harder, it will not blow up MORE and/or faster.


P51D,

Sorry, I haven't been on my PC for a couple days. You asked some questions, that were addressed to me, so I will try to answer them. First off, there ARE military contracts that need to be fulfilled. And understandably, this is one of the top priorities. However, I do not know anything about any political pressure. Either way, we certainly have not slowed our commercial primer production. Second, there were layoffs at the end of the year, but all of those that were laid off have been called back (at least those who wanted to come back). However, the layoffs did NOT affect production as, like you say, there was mandatory OT, etc.

I do not know why there is a primer shortage. I do know we have a MASSIVE amount of back orders. I also know, if anything, that we have been producing more primers than we were a year ago, but certainly not less. Compounding on what I said earlier, military (some of our allies as well) and law enforcement are understandably a priority. However, we also "run" commercial products around the clock, while we don't always run military stuff. In short, I believe the primer shortage (if you want to call it that) is a simple case of "supply and demand." More people than ever are wanted them and buying lots of them. Barring some political interference, I can only assume that this wave of demand will cease as orders are met. Keep in mind this is not a fact, but a mere prediction.

I hope some or all of this is of interest to you. I really like that I do for a living, so excuse me if I got to rambling...

 

[Shoney]

If lord is using online Hodgdon recipes, they do not list primer info. However, if you email the recipe to yourself, the primer info will be there. The online load info is ok but it is no substitute for hard cover manuals.