I have been using Winchester Large Pistol Primers to reload moderate 45 colt loads with W-231. The recipe call for either CCI or Federal Primers, and the loads I've used seem reasonable at the range, however... Is there any available data on what to expect when substituting primer brands?
Comparing large pistol primers
- Thread starter jimeast
- Start date
- Status
Ive never seen any, when I see the published data its usually just from what the tester used for the data. Ive ran a few tests out of boredom just to see the difference and it was less than a few fps with large pistol, a little more with rifle. Are you going for extreme accuracy and are trying to hit an exact velocity with certain primers?
Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
Blue68f100
Member
CCI will have a harder cup than Win or Fed. With Federal being the most sensitive. WLP is rated for Mag use too.
ReloaderFred
Member
Handloader Magazine has done a couple of articles over the years about primer switching, but mostly in rifle calibers, if my memory serves me correctly. In some cases, pressures and velocities varied enough in the calibers tested to make a difference.
In handgun calibers, I switch them around all the time, as long as I'm not loading at the maximum for say, .38 Super, where I'm pushing the ragged edge. If I'm changing for a maximum load, then I'll drop back about 5% to 10% and work it back up. Otherwise, I just prime with whatever I grab off the shelf for handguns. That could be Federal, Winchester, CCI, S&B or MagTech. At plinking distances (10 to 20 yards), I can't tell a difference, and accuracy is what I'm aiming for in most of my loading.
Hope this helps.
Fred
In handgun calibers, I switch them around all the time, as long as I'm not loading at the maximum for say, .38 Super, where I'm pushing the ragged edge. If I'm changing for a maximum load, then I'll drop back about 5% to 10% and work it back up. Otherwise, I just prime with whatever I grab off the shelf for handguns. That could be Federal, Winchester, CCI, S&B or MagTech. At plinking distances (10 to 20 yards), I can't tell a difference, and accuracy is what I'm aiming for in most of my loading.
Hope this helps.
Fred
Ditto what Fred posted. 99% of my pistol loads I can just use whatever primer I have. Sometimes I'll find a noticeable difference in accuracy, but not usually. Or at least I can't shoot the difference.
Maybe the Bullseye shooters can, but I can't.
Maybe the Bullseye shooters can, but I can't.
Please clarify what you mean by "make a difference". That is, did the change from one primer to another in the rifle calibers make a difference for just the "five shot - one hole" shooters or was it enough to make a difference for people shooting milk jugs at 100 yards?
Thanks.
Schwing
Member
I hear a lot of folks swear up and down that they get all kinds of variations using different primer brands. Frankly, in pistol calibers, I have never been able to tell one bit of difference with velocity or accuracy between brands, not enough to change my standard deviation in any measurable way.
Obviously, you would see differences substituting standard for magnum or the other way around but, even then, the differences are so minimal that they are usually hard to quantify. Still, follow the manual there. Using non-magnum primers with magnum powder is more of a deal than the other way around.
One place where I see a huge difference between primer brands is how well they feed in my equipment. I bought a Hornady Lock-N-Load 1911 Auto Primer Tube Filler and it simply will not work with certain brands of primers. CCI, Federal and Remington work great but Winchester and Tula get jammed and don't work at all.
Cup thickness is slightly different with each as well. Some, like Federal are the thinnest which makes them great if you have light trigger springs or something. Others like Tula are thicker so folks with modified or lightened triggers will sometimes experience light primer strikes with them.
Obviously, you would see differences substituting standard for magnum or the other way around but, even then, the differences are so minimal that they are usually hard to quantify. Still, follow the manual there. Using non-magnum primers with magnum powder is more of a deal than the other way around.
One place where I see a huge difference between primer brands is how well they feed in my equipment. I bought a Hornady Lock-N-Load 1911 Auto Primer Tube Filler and it simply will not work with certain brands of primers. CCI, Federal and Remington work great but Winchester and Tula get jammed and don't work at all.
Cup thickness is slightly different with each as well. Some, like Federal are the thinnest which makes them great if you have light trigger springs or something. Others like Tula are thicker so folks with modified or lightened triggers will sometimes experience light primer strikes with them.
The Lyman reloading manual recommends magnum LP primers for lighting off 2 or 3 44mag loads, specifically for powders like H110 and H4227. I've never had any issues using standard Win LP primers with H110, even in sub-freezing weather, so there's undoubtedly a small difference between the different brands. Might have more to do with what the powder thinks of them than anything else.
ReloaderFred
Member
hdwhit,
Rather than copy and paste the whole article, I'll just list the link: https://loaddata.com/Article/BenchTopics/Primers-Again/93
He documents changes from switching primers in some rifle loads while pressure testing in a ballistics lab.
Hope this helps.
Fred
PS: I still switch primers in handgun loads randomly
Rather than copy and paste the whole article, I'll just list the link: https://loaddata.com/Article/BenchTopics/Primers-Again/93
He documents changes from switching primers in some rifle loads while pressure testing in a ballistics lab.
Hope this helps.
Fred
PS: I still switch primers in handgun loads randomly
blarby
Member
Ditto this.
While it is difficult to explain this in a classroom environment where the instruction is that " there are no substitutions in load recipes" what has been stated has been true for me.
sugarmaker
Member
Hard cups like CCI may not light with reduced spring tunes, federal will. My opinion (worth what you pay for it) is that primer and crimp work together, the crimp should hold during the primer flash to allow the pressure and temp in the case to transfer enough heat to overcome the deterrent coating on the powder. If the bullet unseats with a strong primer the powder may not behave well. So stronger primers do not necessarily create more uniform ignition all by themselves. I also think WLP seat more easily in tight pockets vs CCI.
blarby
Member
I'll disagree with that !
the 10k+ PSI of most primers is going to have the same effect on your crimp as any other.
ReloaderFred
Member
Here is a quote from an article by John Barsness:
"Various experiments (including some I’ve performed myself) have shown that the choice of rifle primer can change the pressure of the same load over 12,000 pounds per square inch (psi). This means a load that produces a very safe 58,000 psi with one primer can produce an unsafe 70,000 psi with another—and often there’s no way for the home handloader to tell the difference."
If you're a subscriber to loaddata.com, here is the link: https://loaddata.com/Article/BenchTopics/Primers-and-Pressures/13
Hope this helps.
Fred
"Various experiments (including some I’ve performed myself) have shown that the choice of rifle primer can change the pressure of the same load over 12,000 pounds per square inch (psi). This means a load that produces a very safe 58,000 psi with one primer can produce an unsafe 70,000 psi with another—and often there’s no way for the home handloader to tell the difference."
If you're a subscriber to loaddata.com, here is the link: https://loaddata.com/Article/BenchTopics/Primers-and-Pressures/13
Hope this helps.
Fred
sugarmaker
Member
I was't aware that a primer could produce 10Kpsi. Is it really that high? If so any crimp should indeed have zero effect. I thought maybe 1K psi or so.
sugarmaker
Member
sugarmaker
Member
Removed primer, replace with cci-250, no bullet movement. In both cases the round was ever so slightly warm after firing. No sound other than it sounds exactly like a dry fire, click. Case OD is .526, same as a resized/ unfired round.
blarby
Member
Yep, same as any other.
Not much.
Don't let that fool ya though. Just because your primer at 10k+ psi couldn't dislodge your enormous 50 Cal bullet, doesn't mean they aren't plenty powerful all on their own.
I was just pointing out a common misconception; that crimp and proper ignition are linked, they are not, in any significant manner.
While 10k psi is sufficient to propel most bullets down most bores (see black powder) , there is insufficient gas volume at that pressure without powder to both expand the case and/or dislodge the bullet. That's why you saw such little effect.
In some cartridge/bore combinations it is sufficient ( just primer) to propel the bullet a short distance... usually about mid bore
Not much.
Don't let that fool ya though. Just because your primer at 10k+ psi couldn't dislodge your enormous 50 Cal bullet, doesn't mean they aren't plenty powerful all on their own.
I was just pointing out a common misconception; that crimp and proper ignition are linked, they are not, in any significant manner.
While 10k psi is sufficient to propel most bullets down most bores (see black powder) , there is insufficient gas volume at that pressure without powder to both expand the case and/or dislodge the bullet. That's why you saw such little effect.
In some cartridge/bore combinations it is sufficient ( just primer) to propel the bullet a short distance... usually about mid bore
Last edited:
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Handgun primers are the least sensitive primers when loading.
When loading shotgun ammo you should follow the components listed exactly. With rifle primers it's less important to use the same brand and not critical to change brands. With handgun primers it's almost not a problem to use any brand primer you have available like said many times above. Of course you should follow all the safety rules but you will find little if any changes in handgun ammo performance when changing primer brands.
I routinely bounce between CCI500 primers and Win SPP when loading .38 Special and 9mm ammo and change nothing but the primer brands.
When loading shotgun ammo you should follow the components listed exactly. With rifle primers it's less important to use the same brand and not critical to change brands. With handgun primers it's almost not a problem to use any brand primer you have available like said many times above. Of course you should follow all the safety rules but you will find little if any changes in handgun ammo performance when changing primer brands.
I routinely bounce between CCI500 primers and Win SPP when loading .38 Special and 9mm ammo and change nothing but the primer brands.
sugarmaker
Member
Continuing the primer experiment:
44 mag, speer 200, cci 300, ww brass
Moderate to heavy roll crimp: bullet lodged in forcing cone, gun ties up.
.012 dia reduction lee fcd: bullet moved maybe .020. Lee fcd really does hold well!
Will repeat fcd with cci 350.
44 mag, speer 200, cci 300, ww brass
Moderate to heavy roll crimp: bullet lodged in forcing cone, gun ties up.
.012 dia reduction lee fcd: bullet moved maybe .020. Lee fcd really does hold well!
Will repeat fcd with cci 350.
Wow, a whole bunch of "opinions" on what primers are/do!...
For all intents and purposes, for a regular old shooter/reloader, you won't see any difference. If you chrony your loads I'm sure you will see a difference in velocity, but I don't think it will be enough to matter much to the average guy. When I was trying to wring out the last 1/10 of an inch in accuracy for my handgun loads I kept primer loads separate (all CCI, all Wolf, all Winchester primed loads separate). I worked through a powder work up with one primer and then went to a work up with another primer, all else the same. I guess I'm not the worlds best handgun shot but I did get some pretty good loads for my Dan Wesson .44 Magnum (2" @ 50' consistently), but could tell no difference between primers/groups...
For all intents and purposes, for a regular old shooter/reloader, you won't see any difference. If you chrony your loads I'm sure you will see a difference in velocity, but I don't think it will be enough to matter much to the average guy. When I was trying to wring out the last 1/10 of an inch in accuracy for my handgun loads I kept primer loads separate (all CCI, all Wolf, all Winchester primed loads separate). I worked through a powder work up with one primer and then went to a work up with another primer, all else the same. I guess I'm not the worlds best handgun shot but I did get some pretty good loads for my Dan Wesson .44 Magnum (2" @ 50' consistently), but could tell no difference between primers/groups...
Completely unscientific but I did a primer test in 45ACP with 3 different primers with 3 different powders, same case brand, same bullets. I tested RP 2 1/2, Win LP, and CCI 300 with the 3 powders over a chronograph. End result was RP 2 1/2 consistently gave slightly higher velocity from 25-50 fps more than CCI 300's. Some loads Win LP was nearly the same as RP 2 1/2 with a couple loads Win LP showed the higher velocity. Most RP 2 1/2 primered loads had a little higher velocity than Win LP. CCI was the mildest with slightly less velocity in all loads but a surprise was that several loads the CCI had the least velocity variation. So in my unscientific test RP 2 1/2 was hottest, Win LP very close to RP, and CCI the mildest. May show completely different results in other pistols and calibers or even bullet weights. I'd only be careful if I had a near max load with CCI 300 primers and just switched to RP and Win LP primers as I think pressure would go up?
Yep, some things are discussed on forums that fall into the "theory" catagory, but fail to have a big difference in "real life"...
- Status
