Dilemma - College Student Budget - Need Pistol

[FCFC]

2) I want to stat CCing, and would prefer as close to a full size pistol as possible, preferably from metal construction (not a huge polymer fan, yes I know it has its advantages). I would prefer either a 9mm or .45acp, as I would assume that the .22lr probably isn't the best choice for SD, although I am a pretty wicked shot, but lets just be subjective. That pistol would need to be around $600ish but preferably a little less, and it MUST have an external safety.

You can buy from a very large set of guns with $600, especially if you include pre-owned guns. But why "as close to a full size as possible" for a carry gun?

Of the many different pistols you've shot so far, which ones did you like? Which did you not?

3) I am getting freaked out about CCing. Not about carrying a gun, but making sure its concealed. I have what I would call an athletic build, about 5' 10" - 160ish lbs. I dress well, khakis and a polo or button down but sometimes more casually. I see alot of these bigger guys who wear hawaiian shirts not having a problem concealing, but thats not me. I guess I'm not sure how I would pull if off without having to wear a silly tactical vest or sweatpants/shirt.

The difficulty in keeping concealed generally increases with the size of the gun. But you're right to be concerned about staying concealed. That, after all, is the agreed upon method of carry.

Recently, there was a guy, young guy like you, and very new to carry, who posted here about how his "weapon was outed" in front of some pretty much anti-gun people. Basically, the guy was just careless and the "outed" gun caused him some grief with his colleagues, though, luckily, it wasn't legal grief. But the tricky thing was that, even though he obviously and solely caused the initial (and continuing) disruption to his, his family's, and some others' lives, he found it hard to take his fair share of responsibility for having caused the grief. He seemed to be more interested in convincing some pretty much antis that guns and gun carry was good for everyone. And he made some rather general and unsupportable allegations that every permit holder has their gun outed so it was understandable that he had done so. This was pure poppycock, but he was all defensive about it. Hopefully, he learned from the incident.

The bottom line was that he had to expend a lot of energy to fix a problem of his own making. You are to be commended for having a high degree of concern about the effectiveness of your concealing before you get out there. Preparation, monitoring and assessment are the key processes. There really is no rule that every carrier has to out his gun. "Outing" can be, and usually is, avoided.


Best of luck to you.

 

[skwab]

If you're looking of a CCW I would seriously re think the no polymer requirement because there are a lot of fantastic pistols in your price range with polymer frames. I would suggest going to a range with rentals and take a few for a test drive. Go to a gun show and handle several different models and see which feels good in your hands - a lot of difference between a 1911, glock, XD etc just from the ergos alone.

Non polymers to look at - I would seriously consider the CZ 75 compact or P01 - good luck - lots of choices out there.

 

[Drgong]

I think it reasionable not to like plastic guns, I personally dislike them and there are plenty of guns that are metal that meet his requirement. Of course, if you don't mind plastic guns then there are many more good guns to use.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

For an effective CC, skip the 22 or the 9mm. Minimum 380 with 40 or 45 preferred. Those small or small/fast calibers are very ineffective. The 45 was invented because the "others" would not stop a native drug induced state of painlessness. The compact 1911A1 (I have a 3" Kimber) is easily concealed and carries a wallop that will stop a PCP junkie, pain or no pain. A 22 for self defense is just gonna PO them.

[EDITED TO BE MORE HIGH ROAD]

Your information is incorrect.

The .45ACP was invented in 1906 and essentially was based on a short rimless .45 Colt (invented in 1872). It had nothing to do with drug induced state of painlessness. The .45 Colt was larger, heavier, more powerful round that already existed.

The reason the .45ACP was chosen is because of the lackluster stopping power of the .38 long colt. To compare the .38 long colt in 1875 with <180ft-lb of muzzle energy and solid lead bullet to a modern 9x19 parabellum with with 350-380ft-lb of energy and a JHP (.60-.80cal expanded size) bullet is just foolish. The last 120 years has resulted in a lot of performance improvements in handguns. JHP expand much more reliably now then they did in 1980s (when a lot of LEO, military, and other groups moved away from 9mm). Premium JHP today expand larger & faster, they deal better with heavy clothing. They are designed to expand at lower velocity which allows heavier rounds to be used (147gr vs 115gr in 9mm) resulting in deeper penetration.

To the OP:
If you just want to practice a .22 is good. For CCW I would look into at least .380ACP. A .22 will work but depending on the situation you may find it lacking (heavy clothing, partial barrier, etc). 9mm is hard to beat because it is available everywhere, has manageable recoil, ammo is cheap, and weapons come in variety of sizes from full size down to pocket pistols.

Regarding CC.... Does your state allow OC? If they do then it makes it easier to CC and not worry about getting picked up on a printing/brandishing/exposed weapon charge. In VA we can open carry so even if my pistol became exposed (getting out car, shirt riding up) I would simply be open carrying which is legal.

Find out about the OC & CC laws in your state. Even if OC isn't legal don't worry about people seeing it and freaking out. 99.9% of people are sheep. I open carry most of the time (except at work) and most people don't even notice that. The only thing you need to worry about is LEO hassling you (depends on your area & your LEO view of citizens being armed).

If you post your state others may be able to give you state specific info.

 

[xanderzuk]

OK a little update after reading replies

First, I live in Florida, so I hope that helps.

I have noticed that pretty much everyone disregarded the .22, so I will go ahead and agree to leave that one out for now.

I guess I was a little quick to only consider steel frames and full sizes. I guess I only wanted to consider these because they are what I enjoy to shoot the most. Their heft and length help manage recoil and improve accuracy (for me).

If I am going to carry for self defense, I need to reconsider the application. I am all for having a polymer framed pistol, but something like a glock "safe" pistol kind of scares me without any kind of external safety - just pull the trigger and it goes bang!

I fully understand and practice gun safety - never had an incident - and have taught many people how to shoot. However, the idea of a gun with no real safety floating around clothing scares me a bit.

Also, I have seen .380 come up several times. I've heard others say its an inferior caliber, but I'm willing to throw those comments out if I just had some more substantial info on it.

I guess if I'm going to go down this route, I'm up for a pocket pistol like a Walther PPS, Ruger LCP, or Kel-tec, BUT what is the reliability of these pistols like being so small?

I'm sorry to be flip flopping around as much as I already have, I'm just trying to approach this with as level a head as possible.

Thanks guys.

 

[FCFC]

I am all for having a polymer framed pistol, but something like a glock "safe" pistol kind of scares me without any kind of external safety - just pull the trigger and it goes bang!

You could always consider Condition 3 carry. Many people do it, train for it.

 

[Red Tornado]

If you go with a Keltec, you'll also have enough to get the Ruger. Even with ammo, you should still be under your $600.
RT

 

[crebralfix]

On concealment:

Several factors are involved, including:

1) Overall gun height (#1 criteria for a reason)

The bottom part of the grip is what will print. I have found, that for average sized people, 4.75" tall (excluding sights, measured from top of slide to bottom of magazine) makes for good concealment.

Think of the gun as a triangle. You're going to trade off certain dimensions for others based upon the model you choose.

2) Width of grip area

A very wide grip will grab more shirt...provides a "ledge" for it to bunch up on.

3) Overall width, including holster and belt

People forget this, but holsters add thickness to the area where the gun is. Printing or bulging can occur. This is the reason why many holster manufacturers are going to "split" loops...the loops are widely spaced on opposite ends of the holster. For example, the BladeTech IWB holster adds at least 3/4" to the width of the gun: offset + .08" kydex + double thickness rubber loop + snap.

Keep this in mind when choosing a holster. Don't worry, you'll end of with 50 holsters anyway.

4) Concealment garment

Go up one shirt size. Use earth tones/dark colors or something with stripes or pattern.

5) Weight

Affects your movements and HOW you carry. Your back will likely be out of shape for carry, so your back will get sore. Once it gets sore, you'll start to fiddle with the gun. AVOID doing this. Take the gun off!!! Use a Dillon Precision Daytimer holster thingie (looks like an Amway calendar) and put the gun in your pack.

A GOOD belt is essential. Don Hume belts are great and very reasonable. Look at the BM109 ($45ish). I use 1.25" belts because they look normal, but 1.5" belts give support.

6) Proficiency in carry

This is the hard part. You'll need to learn how to move to prevent printing. Cultivate a mellow attitude...and DO NOT CHANGE YOUR ATTITUDE JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE CARRYING. This is a huge give-away.

It will take some time in front of the mirror. You'll figure it out.


Guns:

The Glock Models 26, 27, and 33 are the most efficient guns for CC I have found. I'm sure the new S&W M&P is right there too, but I haven't CC'd one so I don't have an opinion. The G26 gets you 10+1 with the capability to use G19 and G17 magazines. The Glock 19, 23, and 32 are also excellent because they meet the 4.75" height limit, are narrow, and maximize capacity.

That said about Glocks, there are a gazillion choices out there, many of which have been mentioned. The Browning Hi-Power is another EXCELLENT piece and it is VERY efficient (using the criteria above). It is very concealable. The slide is narrow, you get a grip safety, metal frame, and 13-15 round capacity. The grip is very concealable, yet you can get your hand on the gun. The downside is that it's heavier.

SIGs are good, but big. Same goes with HK and Beretta.

1911's are more of a gun for afficionados...you really need to know what you're doing to make sure they run well. Stay away from 1911's (and old S&W and Colt revolvers) until you're established in a high paying job.

There are several single stack 9mm and 40 S&W pistols available. They are not as efficient as the double stack minis because capacity is very limited (usually to 6 or 7 shots), but they are concealable. The S&W J-Frame revolver is very concealable, but has only 5 shots and is slow to reload. Better than nothing, though.

Take a ruler and notebook to the store (or prep by going to their websites). Look at the Glock 19 and the Hi-Power. Take measurements and get a feel for the guns. Get some holsters, put the guns in them, and compare widths. After awhile, you'll develop a feel for how a gun will CC just by holding it.

I was a grad student when I started CCing...with a SIG P220! Actually, going larger WILL increase your skill because there is less margin for error. You'll be more careful in your movements and your wardrobe will change a bit. The Glock 26 is spoiling me because it's so easy to hide!

 

[jdorian]

I third Gen S&W is probably a good idea overall, they are alloy and still very cheap, meaning under $400 in most cases.

 

[Griz44]

Removed by author - see below.

 

[FCFC]

"pure garbage" was kinda strong, I think...

 

[Griz44]

Removed by author. See below.

 

[XDShooter07]

The PPS I wouldn't consider a pocket pistol, it's decently large but is very thin so it conceals easy. Also it has basically the same trigger system as a glock so if the glock scares you, the PPS scares you, and so does the M&P unless they started putting external safeties on the compacts; I don't think they have. An XD subcompact might ease your woes a little bit as it has a grip safety, but that doesn't help you while holstering the pistol, you still have to pay attention. That fear is pretty common though, I'm the same way. The J-Frame solves that fear for me a little bit due to the long, heavy, DAO trigger pull. If you wan't a little more heft with and easy to conceal gun a Ruger SP101 would be a good option. In the subcompacts with an external safety the beretta PX4 Storm subcompact has an external safety. Any of your compact 1911s will have external safeties. For glocks they also make aftermarket external safeties and Saf-T-Bloks which sit behind the trigger until you pop it out. Of course you could just remind yourself that as you may have to unholster your weapon rapidly, you NEVER have to reholster your weapon rapidly. Just pay very, very good attention during that step and you should be ok. And like another has said you could carry unchambered but you would need to practice that quite a bit. One of the fastest draws I've ever seen was a guy on youtube that drew a glock chambered it and put two on target, it was actually pretty blazing fast; I'll try to find the video.

 

[highfive]

I'm 6'1" and 230 pounds so I'm bigger yes but I don't have any problem concealing a full size or a compact.....Most of the time I carry a Taurus Tracker in .357 4 inch barrel and other times I carry a Taurus PT-111 Pro, 9mm...for me both are excellent guns and their both in your budget. best way try out some...and if you know somebody that have guns or if you can rent some and try them out.. probably will be best...

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

Why the pure garbage denigration for me? I think if you will re-read my post, you will see that this is exactly what I said....????

Maybe the "pure garbage" term was un-needed. It wasn't very highroad. I apologize and will edit the post.

However there was NOTHING correct about your post.

skip the 22 or the 9mm. Minimum 380 with 40 or 45 preferred. Those small or small/fast calibers are very ineffective. The 45 was invented because the "others" would not stop a native drug induced state of painlessness. The compact 1911A1 (I have a 3" Kimber) is easily concealed and carries a wallop that will stop a PCP junkie, pain or no pain. A 22 for self defense is just gonna PO them.

1) You claim 9mm is not enough but a 380 is? The .380ACP which is lighter and has less muzzle energy than a 9mm? Please explain.

2) You claim the .45ACP was designed to "stop a native drug induced state of painlessness." Not true. The .45ACP was designed to put a .45 Long Colt round in a package that could fit in a semi-auto (shorter, rimless). If anything it was LESS powerful than the .45 Colt hower a rimless, short case allowed simpler extraction and loading in a automatic. At the time the .45ACP was being designed the MORE POWERFUL .45 Colt already existed. If pure stopping power was the only consideration the .45Colt could have continued to be used.

3) You could argue the .45ACP became popular because the .38 long colt didn't have enough stopping power. This is a strawman argument as the .38 long colt only had about 160-180ft*lbs of muzzle energy (little more than a high velocity .22). A modern 9mm JHP is going to be in the 350-380ft-lb range. Ironically a modern (say a Federal LE HST) 9x19 JHP is more powerful than a .45ACP Ball (only ammo type at the time) circa 1906.

4) You claim the .45ACP "carries a wallop that will stop a PCP junkie, pain or no pain" Not only not true it is blatently misleading to indicate a single hit from .45ACP will "blow the BG away" hollywood style which is a horribly dangerous assumption. Rounds (of any size) stop targets because they strike vital area (CNS or Cardivascular). Without proper shot placement there is absolutely no guarantee that a .45ACP will stop anything. Sure .45ACP does penetrate few more inches and expands slightly larger but the differences are minor and still require accurate placement.

5) You claim the .22 is "just going to PO them". While I agree the .22 is anemic plenty of people are stopped by .22 every year. If you think the .22 is just going to "PO someone" will you volenteer to be shot once, twice, three times and see if you reaction is "PO" or "fear for your life". The reason to not get a .22 is not because it can only "PO" a BG it is because for same price, weight, size you can get a more capable round. Even the .380ACP (which you seem to prefer over larger 9x19) will have twice the muzzle energe of a .22 and will penetrate deeper and produce larger wound cavity.

 

[XDShooter07]

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ose72en9YfM

 

[RonE]

For a small pistol, look at the Makarov, the P63 and the P64 in 9X18. This is slightly more powerful than most .380's but recoil is hard to manage comfortably in small pistols. (I speak from having had a P64). For a pistol that is a small full size pistol, the advice on the Sig P6 is very sound, they are great pistols, a little smaller, they are thin because of single stack and they are safe to carry with one in the tube. The P6 while not as cheap to buy as the P63 and P64 is still cheap enough to buy that you can perhaps still be able to buy a Ruger Mk II or III and have something inexpensive to shoot. I have a P6 and it is very nice to carry.

 

[SoCalShooter]

I felt the same way, I got my ccw a few weeks ago but have been trying different guns and different holsters for some time now. I carry a Springfield Champion 45 stainless.(commander 45) I have a don hum IWB and a g code IWB, both make it very comfortable and easy to carry, you want to make sure you get a good holster belt, don hume makes them really well and they are not going to break the bank. I suggest atleast 1 1/2in wide or up to 1 3/4 on the belt width, you got about 40+ ounces to a all steel 1911 style of weapon 5 or 4 in dont matter in the weight category much, but it definetly makes a big deal when you have to sit down, I found the 5" model of my kimber to be to larg for my build to probably be able to sit down without major printing.

 

[Geronimo45]

I'm sorry to be flip flopping around as much as I already have, I'm just trying to approach this with as level a head as possible.

Good. Flip-flop before you buy. Much cheaper that way.

I'm a shoulder holster guy. Vertical only, muzzle up or muzzle down. I haven't found grip width to mean a thing. Grip length can be, and barrel length as well (muzzle up rig).

One of the reasons I went with shoulder rigs is the concealment issue. Vertical shoulder rigs print less than their horizontal brethren. A shoulder rig can be concealed by a buttoned-up jacket or Hawaiian shirt without a problem, and the cover garment won't be riding up the butt of the gun. I'm about the same size as you, and I can tote a full-size 1911 or K-frame under that jacket or shirt. No problems so far.

 

[Griz44]

Happiness, your fencepost awaits. Feel free to argue away...by yourself. The man wanted an opinion. That's all. It is not a debate, it is not worth yours or mine effort to make it anything more. There is no right or wrong solution to a non-existent problem. It is an "opinion". Just chill, have a cold one on me.

 

[ndh87]

My fullsize Kimber with homemade IWB holster.

 

[The Unknown User]

Welcome.

First off, don't worry too much about steel vs. polymer, caliber, etc. Shoot the largest caliber in a platform you can shoot comfortably. For me, that's a Glock 19 (9mm). I can carry it comfortably.

That may not work for you. Try different things.

The first thing that came to mind was a S&W Sigma. You may not like it. The M&P or Springfield XD is nice, too. If you really don't want a handgun with polymer, then that's cool. I'm just saying you should give it a fair chance; I find the polymer frames cut down on weight, but actually help recoil. It flexes slightly.

It's like how batons are made of a synthetic material; it flexes on impact, which is better for the user.