Dilemma, (firearm transfer)

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Don't Tread On Me

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OK, this has to do with a form of transfer "between" States, however actually occuring in the same state. I am going to use fictitious names and create a scenario.


Joe is in Florida. Joe owns a "ban era" AR-15. Bob is a family member. Bob is from New York State. Bob drives down every couple of years. Joe would like to transfer possession of the AR to Bob by having Bob pick up the rifle while on vacation in Florida.


Here is some additional information:

Joe legally resides in Florida
Joe is not a felon
Joe legally obtained and owns that AR

Bob legally resides in New York State
Bob is not a felon
Bob can legally own firearms in his state
Bob can legally own that particular AR in New York (complies with State AWB)


Neither Joe or Bob are FFL's.


Bob is inheriting the AR-15 from Joe (although Joe is still alive). THERE IS NO EXCHANGE OF MONEY AT ALL. The AR is NOT being sold nor is the AR being shipped by a 3rd party.


***


Given the conditions and circumstances, is it legal to do this without the use of an FFL?



I've read many posts and heard lengthy debate about this process, but the conditions were never quite the same. Often time it involved shipping, or a sale, or some other condition that complicated the situation to where it legally required an FFL transfer.

Please consider these specific conditions and whether or not you think this is legal.
 
From what I have been told personally by an ATF Inspector, this transfer as you have descrbed it, would be legal. However, using a FFL to do the transfer would remove all shreds of doubt and what if's.
 
There is no doubt in my mind that the transfer would be illegal. It is a transfer between two unlicensed individuals who are residents of different states. Bob is not inheriting the firearm from Joe. Joe is giving it to him as a gift. As far as BATF is concerned a transfer of possession will occur. They don't care if money is exchanged or not. A transfer is still a transfer.

The provision in 27CFR478.29(a) on bequests only covers bequests from an estate. I have a letter from BATF Hq confirming this. If Joe dies and leaves the rifle to Bob, then a direct transfer from Joe's estate to Bob would be legal. I doubt if Joe wants to give Bob the rifle that badly. :)
 
why are you asking permission? on the internet no less?

Just do it and don't worry about it.

It's not like anyone will actually care or know unless the guy in florida shoots somebody...
 
yorick wrote:

"Just do it and don't worry about it."

best advice ive seen on THR all day. :rolleyes: the guy wants to stay legal and you're telling him not to worry about the law.....

thank God we have board members like this.
 
Saving the $20 that the ffl would charge (check on gunbroker.com and they list their fees) would not be worth having the ATF insepctors come see you (even though they have always been courteous to me). Sometimes spending a little can save a lot of hassle. Sometimes avoiding the APPEARANCE of impropriety is as important as avoiding impropriety.
 
First question, does NY have a registration of guns law? It seems to me that if the answer is no, then how will anyone know how Bob got the gun, assuming he can get it back to NY without any hassle? Yes, legally it is a problem. Yes, he should transfer it through a NY FFL. But, as with my thread on stupid gun laws, once the gun is back in NY, how will anyone be able to tell where it came from?
 
EOD Guy is exactly right, though I wish he'd quote from the US Code instead.
Click to expand...

Are you following me? :D

The law is codified in the Federal Register. 27 CFR is a special edition of the Federal Register. Congress authorizes the Executive Branch to promulgate regulations for the enforcement of the law as passed by Congress. Those regulations have the force of law unless they are overturned by the courts.

Actually, 27CFR does a lot better job than most of the Federal regulations I work with in following the US Code exactly. The majority of the passages in 27CFR are identical, word-for-word, as the US Code.
 
EOD Guy is right on the money on this one. The transfer as described would be a violation of the Gun Control Act. However, assuming that both Florida and New York allow contiguous state transfers and that the sale would not be illegal in either state, the transfer through an FFL could take place in Florida. The guy in Florida would transfer the weapon to a Florida FFL and the guy from New York could then have it transferred to him. Check the state laws of both states regarding contiguous state transfers.
 
Since when are Florida and New York "contiguous"? If they are, I'll have to exhume my 9th grade geography teacher and have a serious chat about my education.

"Inherit"? From a guy who isn't dead? Wait, let me check the date. Was this posted on April 1st?
 
Since when are Florida and New York "contiguous"? If they are, I'll have to exhume my 9th grade geography teacher and have a serious chat about my education
Click to expand...

Miami Beach is merely a suburb of New York City. You probably havent been there or else you'd know.
 
NY does allow contiguous state transfers

NYS Penal Law

S 265.40 Purchase of rifles and/or shotguns in contiguous states.
Definitions. As used in this act:
1. "Contiguous state" shall mean any state having any portion of its
border in common with a portion of the border of the state of New York;
2. All other terms herein shall be given the meaning prescribed in
Public Law 90-618 known as the "Gun Control Act of l968" (18 U.S.C.
921).
It shall be lawful for a person or persons residing in this state, to
purchase or otherwise obtain a rifle and/or shotgun in a contiguous
state, and to receive or transport such rifle and/or shotgun into this
state; provided, however, such person is otherwise eligible to possess a
rifle and/or shotgun under the laws of this state.

I'm not sure if non-contiguous tranfers are ok? Somewhere on this site there is a post from BATF about this.


I thought Miami was a suburb of Havana. Ft. Lauderdale is a suburb of the Bronx.
 
Free legal advice is

worth what you paid for it - IF you're lucky.

"From what I have been told personally by an ATF Inspector, this transfer as you have descrbed it, would be legal."

Drivel. How do you "inherit" a gun from someone who's still alive? :rolleyes:

An interstate transfer of firearm w/o an FFL is a violation of Federal law, unless it is an inheritance. This isn't. Whether money changes hands is irrelevant. Case closed :scrutiny:
 
The ATF has stated that it will not prosecute non-contiguous state transfers.
Click to expand...

That's because there's nothing to prosecute. The contiguous state provision was removed from Federal law in, I believe, 1986. Federal law now allow purchase of a rifle or shotgun from a dealer in any state as long as the laws of both states involved are followed.
 
The ATF has stated that it will not prosecute non-contiguous state transfers.
Click to expand...
OMG I just read what I wrote...it sounds terrible without the context!

The ATF has stated in its newletter that transfers of rifles from an FFL to a non-resident from a non-contiguous state will not be prosecuted, even though the language of the resident's or FFL's state law doesn't permit purchases from non-contiguous (state law permitting the purchase is a requirement for the purchase to be federally legal.)
 
That's because there's nothing to prosecute.
Click to expand...
Not so...compliance with state law is still a requirement for exemption. If state law doesn't allow the transfer, then the transfer is federally illegal.
 
I saw that newsletter. The problem is that very few states repealed their contiguous state laws when the Federal provision was repealed. BATF stated that if a State's contiguous state law is written to allow contiguous state purchases then a purchase in any state would comply with that law. There are some states however, that wrote their laws allowing out of state purchases ONLY in contiguous states. BATF said that those laws were still in effect and so residents of those states were limited to contiguous state purchases.

I believe that both New York and Florida are in the former catagory and that the firearm could be transferred by a Florida dealer to a New York resident. Finding a dealer willing to do so might be a problem.

Quote:
That's because there's nothing to prosecute.
Not so...compliance with state law is still a requirement for exemption. If state law doesn't allow the transfer, then the transfer is federally illegal.
Click to expand...

You're correct. I was only addressing the contiguous state provision that many people still think is part of Federal law.
 
Since when are Florida and New York "contiguous?"
Click to expand...

For the terms of our discussion "contiguous" actually means any state, it's how the rules are written. See what EOD Guy said above.
 
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