Dilemma, (firearm transfer)

[Graystar]

I believe that both New York and Florida are in the former catagory

Just an FYI that NY is in the "contiguous" camp.

Sec. 265.40 Purchase of rifles and/or shotguns in contiguous states.
Definitions. As used in this act:
1. "Contiguous state" shall mean any state having any portion of its
border in common with a portion of the border of the state of New York;
2. All other terms herein shall be given the meaning prescribed in
Public Law 90-618 known as the "Gun Control Act of l968" (18 U.S.C. 921).

It shall be lawful for a person or persons residing in this state, to
purchase or otherwise obtain a rifle and/or shotgun in a contiguous state,
and to receive or transport such rifle and/or shotgun into this state;
provided, however, such person is otherwise eligible to possess a rifle
and/or shotgun under the laws of this state.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

For the terms of our discussion "contiguous" actually means any state, it's how the rules are written. See what EOD Guy said above.

Really?

NYS Penal Law

S 265.40 Purchase of rifles and/or shotguns in contiguous states.
Definitions. As used in this act:
1. "Contiguous state" shall mean any state having any portion of its
border in common with a portion of the border of the state of New York;

You should inform the State of New York, their penal code obviously has not caught up to your interpretation of the law.

Here's what EODGuy wrote. It does not appear to me that he thinks this transfer would be legal. In fact, he specifically stated that it would not.

There are some states however, that wrote their laws allowing out of state purchases ONLY in contiguous states. BATF said that those laws were still in effect and so residents of those states were limited to contiguous state purchases.

There is nothing in that to define "Contiguous" as meaning "Non-contiguous."

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

"Inherit"? From a guy who isn't dead? Wait, let me check the date. Was this posted on April 1st?

Drivel. How do you "inherit" a gun from someone who's still alive?

An interstate transfer of firearm w/o an FFL is a violation of Federal law, unless it is an inheritance. This isn't. Whether money changes hands is irrelevant. Case closed

I've done dictionary searches on both "inherit" and "bequest". Half of the dictionaries have definitions that include being dead, and half mention nothing at all about being dead, but instead define these terms as receiving. One would have to find what the US Gov defines these terms as.


As for the GCA of 1968,

§ 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful --

(1) for any person --

(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce; or

(B) except a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, to engage in the business of importing or manufacturing ammunition, or in the course of such business, to ship, transport, or receive any ammunition in interstate or foreign commerce;

(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that --

(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;

(B) this paragraph shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer from depositing a firearm for conveyance in the mails to any officer, employee, agent, or watchman who, pursuant to the provisions of section 1715 of this title, is eligible to receive through the mails pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person, for use in connection with his official duty; and

(C) nothing in this paragraph shall be construed as applying in any manner in the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any possession of the United States differently than it would apply if the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or the possession were in fact a State of the United States;

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

(4) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, to transport in interstate or foreign commerce any destructive device, machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954), short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, except as specifically authorized by the Secretary consistent with public safety and necessity;

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting

The parts in bold are what I believe are relevant to this discussion. Are there other sections that I am not aware of (GCA is long....) that relate to this issue?

On another angle,

Loan or rental? So if Bob borrows the rifle for say....50 years, that would be legal? How do you define "temporary"?

http://www.onelook.com/?w=temporary&ls=a

Most of them refer to it as a limited time. A limit can be anything. Even if it be 50 years, that limit is 50 years, then Joe wants his AR-15 back (for example). The idea here is, ownership was never transfered in any way.


Does the ATF actually prosecute these types of transfers? It would seem difficult and expensive for them to prove all the various things they would need to prove in order to convict people on the conditions and restrictions quoted above. Again, that is ideally how it seems. In the real world, the govenrment and the courts do whatever the hell they want.


Any input?

 

[EOD Guy]

See the url for the BATF Newsletter outlining their position on individual state's contiguous state laws. The article is on page 2 of the newsletter.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/newsletter/ffl_newsltr_aug04.pdf

 

[Graystar]

How do you define "temporary"?

A jury would make that determination.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

How do you define "temporary"?

A jury would make that determination.

Hmm.....guess both Joe and Bob would end up in prison then.

 

[TechBrute]

It strikes me as ironic that gun owners will jump through every hoop the ATF will put in front of them to stay legal, but yet we're treated as criminals by the media for even owning guns, no matter how much we do to stay within the law.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled program... sorry for the hijack.

 

[Graystar]

I've done dictionary searches on both "inherit" and "bequest". Half of the dictionaries have definitions that include being dead, and half mention nothing at all about being dead, but instead define these terms as receiving.

But those definitions contain more than just receiving, don't they? It's receiving by way of right or title. "Bequest" and "inherit" are never broad enough to include mere giving.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

See the url for the BATF Newsletter outlining their position on individual state's contiguous state laws. The article is on page 2 of the newsletter.

Okay. It says the Feds no longer have a "contiguous state" rule, but you must comply with the laws of the states involved. There is no definition of the term "contiguous" to make it mean "non-contiguous," and even if there were the Feds do not have the autority to define what "contiguous" means for the state of NY.

"Contiguous" means "contiguous." The fact that some states have removed that term from their laws does not change its meaning for those states that still use it.

ATF takes the position that if the laws of a given State allow its residents to acquire a long gun in a contiguous State, those laws also allow its residents to acquire a long gun in any other State where the laws of that State permit such transactions, unless the language contained in that State’s law expressly prohibits it residents from acquiring a firearm outside that State. Questions regarding particular State law provisions should be referred to your local ATF office.

 

[Graystar]

Okay. It says the Feds no longer have a "contiguous state" rule, but you must comply with the laws of the states involved. There is no definition of the term "contiguous" to make it mean "non-contiguous," and even if there were the Feds do not have the autority to define what "contiguous" means for the state of NY.

I'm afraid that you are missing a very important point here. The NY law says what you CAN do, but it doesn't say what you CAN'T do. That is, the law does not contain a restriction. The restriction WAS provided by the federal government...but that's been lifted. Anything that is not restricted is permissible. Therefore, even though NY law explicitly allows the purchase of rifles in contiguous states, it implicitly allows purchases in non-contiguous states though lack of a restriction. This is so because, unlike handguns, the purchase of rifles is not generally restricted.

 

[EOD Guy]

Quote:
I've done dictionary searches on both "inherit" and "bequest". Half of the dictionaries have definitions that include being dead, and half mention nothing at all about being dead, but instead define these terms as receiving.

But those definitions contain more than just receiving, don't they? It's receiving by way of right or title. "Bequest" and "inherit" are never broad enough to include mere giving.

Yes, but BATF has specifically stated in letters of clarification that the term bequest in the regulation specifically applies to bequests from an estate.

I'm afraid that you are missing a very important point here. The NY law says what you CAN do, but it doesn't say what you CAN'T do. That is, the law does not contain a restriction. The restriction WAS provided by the federal government...but that's been lifted. Anything that is not restricted is permissible. Therefore, even though NY law explicitly allows the purchase of rifles in contiguous states, it implicitly allows purchases in non-contiguous states though lack of a restriction. This is so because, unlike handguns, the purchase of rifles is not generally restricted.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make and I also believe it was the basis for the BATF determination as stated in their newsletter.

"Contiguous" means "contiguous." The fact that some states have removed that term from their laws does not change its meaning for those states that still use it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ATF
ATF takes the position that if the laws of a given State allow its residents to acquire a long gun in a contiguous State, those laws also allow its residents to acquire a long gun in any other State where the laws of that State permit such transactions, unless the language contained in that State’s law expressly prohibits it residents from acquiring a firearm outside that State. Questions regarding particular State law provisions should be referred to your local ATF office.

I believe that the BATF was referring to the state of purchase by a resident of a state that allowed contiguous state purchases.