Dipper Calculation-Surely I'm Wrong?

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L

Low Budget Shooter

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Dear Friends,

I apologize for not checking in here at THR for so long. Life has been settling down lately, and I'm finally able to devote some attention to important stuff again!!!

Okay, this one has me stumped. Either Lee Precision is wrong, or I am, and I'm betting that I am wrong. But I can't see how.

Here's the deal:

I bought a used Lee Loader in .38 Special. The load chart is for a .3 cc dipper, but a .5 cc dipper is in the set. So, I checked the Lee website, and their .38 special LL shows a .5 cc dipper. But isn't that WAY too big a charge of powder.

Here's my calculation:

HP-38 is .0926 x .5cc = charge of 5.4 grains

But recommended charges of HP-38 are in the 3.0-4.0 range. Even +p tops out at 4.9 grains, I think.

I e-mailed Lee, and a person e-mailed back saying that .5 cc is the right dipper for .38 special.

Where am I going wrong?

Thanks!

LBS
 
What bullet and what powder,My Lyman manual list charges using the 158 Gr. jacketed bullet on MAX loads from 3.2 Grs. to 5.7 Grs. even higher on +P loads using lighter bullets. Honestly it sounds kinda strange that they would give you a .3cc load chart and a .5cc dipper sounds like something got mixed up.
 
Hello There LBS,

Please describe the tools of your bench for us so that we know where you are, tool wise.

The dipper that came in my Lee Loader Kit contained a 5cc dipper as well. You basically will have to get a Lee dipper kit for around $10.00 if you want to have some flexibility in what cans of powders you will have to choose from. Other wise, you will have to go with the list that is on the small card in the kit.

My REAL opinion is to get a load book such as Lyman #48 or the ABC's book of Loading and a real powder measure scale. it doesn't need to be fancy but it does need to be accurate. weigh each charge carefully and eventually, you will have 1 to 5 presses, and all the other crap that comes with it. Have fun.

Cheers...
 
I love the Lee dippers and use them for a great many loads, I even still use the old red dippers with completely different calibrations than the current production yellow ones. I used my scale and developed my own cross reference data, once your technique is developed they are as consistant as any other measure. Point of reference: I load over 140 calibers.
 
Or the lee dipper set. the set is pretty cool as it gives you a conversion chart for the different powders. so you can look up loads on line or in books then check you chart for what powder you want. its a lot better
 
I am with MMCSRET, I have both sets and use them all the time. I weigh about 6 times for a box of 50 and find them accurate +/- .1 grain. It also depends on what type of powder you are using.
 
Lgbloader, you cracked me up when you asked what the tools of my bench are. The one tool of my coffee table is a used Lee Loader in .38 Special!

FWIW, I reloaded my first 150 with this Lee Loader Saturday evening, and shot them this evening. I suppose you all remember the feeling. It was like giving birth to my first child! That is to say, I have never actually given birth. No squibs and no explosions, and I lived to tell about it.

Res45, I'm loading 148 gr DEWC with HP-38.

So, if I loaded a 148 gr WC with .5 cc of HP-38, wouldn't that be way over?

Thanks for the advice to get a scale. I sure do plan to as soon as I can.

Thanks!

LBS
 
LBS,

Lgbloader, you cracked me up when you asked what the tools of my bench are. The one tool of my coffee table is a used Lee Loader in .38 Special!
Click to expand...

I just didn't want to step out too much and maybe make you feel insulted or something. After all, we are all gentlemen and I try to remember that until someone really pisses me off... If you know what I mean. Sometimes talking on a typewriter can sound colder or harder than you mean for it to sound.


Any How, Get a good book and start there. Feel free to PM me anytime if you have a question or two or more. There are some incredibly knowledgable loaders on this forum and some true human beings. I consider a few of these people as friends. IMHO, they can give advice I consider to be priceless for info.

I am very blessed to have a pretty well stocked cave but I certainly don't forget all the ammo that I loaded with my first bench that consisted of the Lee Classic Loader in 38 spcl, a hammer, a scale and a 2x4 for a bench. Slowly but surely, I added tools. The first thing was a hand primer. I must have loaded literally thousands with that thing and never popped a primer. And sometimes, when I have had a bad day at the day gig, I go straight to The Cave, get out one of my Lee Classic Loader kits ( i collected a few different calibers worth along the way - 38 spcl, 357mag, 30-30, 30-06, and 7.62 x 54R.) and assemble around 20 rounds, one at a time, and it is a great stress relief.

Anyhow, talk to you soon.

LGB
 
I highly recommend retiring the little plastic dipper and getting a good scale and powder measure
Click to expand...

I started out with dippers but I also had a scale. The dippers are close sometimes, but you have to have a scale,
too much/little powder can be a bad thing, very bad.
 
I have the dipper set, which includes a powder volume to grains reference card, and recently I also got a "perfect powder measure" and "lee safety scale." The latter are all I use now. I did do some comparison testing between the powder measure and dippers, and with good technique dippers can be very accurate. BUT - they don't let you fine tune stuff, and in smaller calibers the dipper selection can cause you to have an option between a wimpy load and a max or over-max load. I do find the reference chart quite handy for initial setting of my powder measure, after which I weigh charges til I have it exactly where I want it. The measure and scale I have could be had for around $40, and I'd recommend them if that's feasible for you. (Actually, I would recommend a nicer scale if feasible.)
 
I highly recommend retiring the little plastic dipper and getting a good scale and powder measure.
Click to expand...
+1

There is no way to know what your powder charge is with any specific lot of powder, unless you weigh it.

Even if you want to use a dipper, you have to have a scale to figure out what the dipper is really dipping with your powder.

rcmodel
 
If you take the charge recommendations by volume from the little reference guide that comes with the Whackmole kit and compare them to the reference guide that comes with the Lee dies, you'll find that they state vastly different charge volumes for any given powder...
 
Lazyeye: in my use of the dippers ever since they first came out (early 60's) I have never experienced the variation you describe when I followed the operating instructions. I was shown how to make my own dippers several tears before that, the old Gentleman that taught me to make the dippers used them for smokeless powders and black powder and he had come of age before smokeless was in common use and had adapted the tools and techniques to fit his situation and passed that ability on to several of us and we continue to do the same. Good, safe shooting to all!
 
i have and use the lee dippers quite often. but i also weigh my charges just the same. not all of them, but i want to know how much powder i am putting in my shells! which lee dipper you need, depends on what powder, and what load you are trying to use. i am sure there is a load where that dipper is the right one, and as long as you only load that load, you will be fine. but if you are trying to use a different load than what they are telling you to use, you will either need to invest in a lee dipper kit, or much better, buy a GOOD scale. it need not be expensive to be good, but if you are going to do much reloading at all, you really NEED a GOOD scale. just my 2 cents worth, and good luck.
 
Hodgdon doesn't list an HP-38 load for .38 Special with >5gr. for anything over a 110gr. bullet. 5.4 for a 148gr. WC is too much.

Funnel
 
the bottom line is that you can chose to measure your powder by volume or by mass.

Though case capacity and volume consumed by the powder come into play, it's the mass of the powder that determines the actual potency of the charge.

Now fortunately the mass of the powder is related to the volume it consumes. The two factors that come into play are the density of the powder and how the powder packs.

Lee's system uses a factor they define as Volume Measuring Density (VMD), that takes the powder density and packing into account and allows you to use a simple formula (charge mass in grains X VMD factor = charge volume). Lee then tabulates the results of this formula for different powders and their standard Auto-disk or dipper volumes. In short, their attempting to make reloading as simple as possible. And (IMHO) this is a good approach because all of your automated presses (both turret and progressive) use volume measures to drop powder.

BUT......it's NOT THE WHOLE STORY, becasue the actual density and packing of any given will vary slightly from one instance to another. The sources of this variation are both in the environment (temp., humidity, altitude, etc...) and in the powder itself, which varies from manufacturers batch run (lot) to another.

So....if your going to reload with volumetric measures ONLY, you have to be conservative.....and Lee's VMD values and tables are just that.

If you employ a scale when setting up your volumetric powder drop, you can adjust the actual volume required to get the desired charge mass. Add to this process a periodic check where you weigh one out every X loads and you can SAFELY load much closer to the pressure limits of your particular cartridge. Keep copious notes and you'll be able to reproduce you results with each reloading session, tweaking here and there as you deem need be.

Do you need to do all this?

Well to quote my favorite .44 mg. packing San Fran. detective "the question is do you feel lucky"

Lot's of people will tell you they've reloaded with dippers and volume powder drops alone with no problem for ages.

But when you can pick up a scale for such a small investment ($20 brings home the Lee scale, which is hardly the best or most convenient, yet is accurate) why not do it.

Safety and more accurate results make good sense to me.
 
I feel if load any kind of ammo you need a scale. I have dippers and like using them but i always check the charge on a scale. My dipper charges never matched Lees chart. For a few dollars you can buy a Lee scale or a small digital scale. I have a lot found memories loading 38sp with a Lee Loader. You can get pretty quick with it. Just wait till you set a primer off it gets your attention.

Mike
 
Powder dippers, albeit homemade, have been working for me, week in and week out, for years. Thousands and thousands of rounds with nary a hitch.

Mine are made from spent 9mm brass, soldered to a brass rod. I simply file the case down until it throws the just right amount of powder, checked with an accurate scale. Then, it's marked, put in it's own plastic box (empty .22 100 round brick) and labled with the powder and thrown weight.

To my mind, a powder dipper is not much different than a powder dispenser. Each has a hole that powder falls into by gravity. One advantage that a dipper has is that the powder never compacts and never bridges.

In all those thousands of rounds, I've never had a squib, nor have I ever had a double charge.

Search for a thread entitled "How do you measure powder?" for a photo that depicts a homemade powder dipper and a test I ran in 2006. Sample size of 30 dips and dumps for each powder, each dip/dump weighed individually. Using my 45ACP set up for Clays.

For Clays, all were between 3.85g to 3.9g
For Bullseye, all were between 5.4g to 5.5g
For Titegroup, all were 6.55g to 6.7g

More than adequate unless you are shooting at Camp Perry.
 
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I use the Lee Auto Disk, which functions similar to your powder dipper by using a consistent volume of powder. However, with my scale, the powder dropped out of the disk is always lighter than what their table shows.

My current load setup in my press is 5.1 grains of Unique behind a 230 grn LRN (.45 Auto). To get this 5.1 grains, I'm using the .66 cc opening on my disk. According to Lee, this is supposed to yield 6.0 grains of Unique.

Get a scale as soon as you can afford one. I didn't start loading until I had a scale to double-check the powder charge.
 
Dippers and dispensers

This is not the same as a generic dipper. The dippers in the quoted message are for a specific powder. If used with a different powder they will give a different charge. The Lee dippers are generic/meant to work with a few powders that have about the same density.

As stated in previous messages in this thread, the Lee Autodisk table have to be conservative because of the variation in density between batches, conditons, etc.

Scales are not expensive and really should be used at least as a periodic check of your powder drops.


"Powder dippers, albeit homemade, have been working for me, week in and week out, for years. Thousands and thousands of rounds with nary a hitch.

Mine are made from spent 9mm brass, soldered to a brass rod. I simply file the case down until it throws the just right amount of powder, checked with an accurate scale. Then, it's marked, put in it's own plastic box (empty .22 100 round brick) and labled with the powder and thrown weight."
 
Dippers are fine, Lee or home made, but you HAVE TO HAVE A SCALE, period. :)
 
Yup, a scale is the only way to calibrate your dippers.

You need to know what your dipper's volume will throw for any given powder.

And you re-calibrate your dippers every time you use one with a new jug of powder.
 
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