theotherwaldo
Member
Remember, the end of the Volstead Act didn't put an end to dry states and counties.
It just put control of alcohol regulations into the hands of individual states and counties.
The death of the NFA would do much the same... .
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It just put control of alcohol regulations into the hands of individual states and counties.
The death of the NFA would do much the same... .
OP
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N555
Member
He sells silencers, that's why he's our resident NFA enthusiast.
JN01
Member
dogtown tom
Member
If you think Ive made any argument in favor of the NFA or GCA........your reading comprehension sucks. You utterly fail to grasp the concept that someone who understands federal fireams law doesn't automatically agree with such laws.
Don't we all?
Meanwhile the NFA has been in effect for eighty eight years. if you are waiting for it to go away or waiting until inflation makes the $200 tax stamp more affordable you'll likely never own an NFA firearm.
dogtown tom
Member
I wonder about that.
i dont think the $200 tax is what is keeping people from buying, its the wait for Form 4 approval.
dogtown tom
Member
He's a moron. For the reasons already given. That he's in a court battle with ATF doesn't change that.
dogtown tom
Member
Spend two minutes and educate yourself about how much $$$ the gun industry spends on Second Amendment lobbying and battling for gun rights.
Then come back and tell me I'm in it for the cash. Before you do, note that i own ZERO machine guns, have ZERO $$$ invested in them and do NFA transfers for a whopping $50.
If you think I'm in it for the bucks get your own FFL and do transfers for free and sales for zero profit. We all eagerly await how your business works out.
I understand that your budget for NFA toys is restricted by your income, so is mine. Thats why I became a gun dealer. Its one of three part time jobs I have so I can afford to play with guns. And since you didnt ask........I've never bought a tax stamp for any of my NFA firearms.
dogtown tom
Member
I don't think so.
There will always be guys who want a "real" Thompson and not a Kahr Thompson.
dogtown tom
Member
What i sell has nothing to do with what intersts me. I sell/transfer a ton of Taurus pistols, but would never own one.
And as far as "resident NFA enthusiast"? Dude, Im not even in the top 200 here at THR.
Hang around longer than a few months and you'll learn who the real enthusiasts are.
AlexanderA
Member
This is a myth that keeps cropping up (that machine gun owners have a vested interest in the Hughes Amendment remaining in place). I don't know any machine gun owner, including myself, that feels that way. If the truth be told, we got into this because we liked the guns, and not because of financial considerations. We would like to add more to our collections. I, for one, don't plan on selling, and so paper gains are meaningless to me.
Jim Watson
Member
OK, let's say it would hurt DEALERS with megabuck inventories to SELL.
It really doesn't matter if it is the $200 tax or the wait period. Either or both do keep people from purchasing NFA items. I can see deregulating/removing suppressors, SBRs and SBSs from the NFA increasing sales. I have heard people say either one has kept them from purchasing anything that requires a Form 4. Though you are right that the wait time does get mentioned more.
IF we are talking suppressors, short barreled rifles and short barreled shotguns, I don't see that effecting dealers with large inventories.
When it comes to machine guns, I don't see it making a huge difference to dealers. It will depend on the types of machine guns. One's that were common and cheap before the Hughes Amendment will again lower in price. The machine guns with collectors value will most likely stay at higher prices. Or at least that is how it was before the Hughes Amendment.
I can give a few examples.
An original factory Colt AR with a full auto or burst function will keep its value while auto sears and drop in auto sears would decrease in price.
A real Thompson machine gun will also keep its value while modern copies will decrease in value.
A real M3/M3A1 sub machine-gun (grease gun) will again hold its value while modern copies would decrease in value.
A friend of mine has his Type 6 and Type 7 FFL along with paying his SOT for making NFA items would love to see the NFA go away. He said that he could definitely sell more if it did.
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AlexanderA
Member
Again, not true. Dealers make their money on turnover, not on sitting on inventory waiting for it to appreciate. If the Hughes Amendment was repealed, that would usher in glory days for dealers, since their volume of sales would go way up.
Golfanaticshooter
Member
Oh well......
Jim Watson
Member
So everybody would just eat those "investment grade" ban era guns.
Right.
Right.
dogtown tom
Member
Huh?
"Ban era" usually refers to the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) of 1994.
Fully transferable machine guns aren't "ban era". They are MG's registered prior to May 19, 1986.
Any machine guns manufactured after that date could only be transferred to police or military or for LE demonstration by an FFL/SOT.
The high prices of those fully transferrables are directly attributable to the Hughes Amendment to FOPA, which closed the registration of new machine guns. This finite supply and an increasing demand is what drove prices upward.
You never lose $$$ on an investment until you sell. So........dont sell.
I’m right there with ya. Sadly, what you’ve just described is a reality as well.
Clearly not everyone, but there are some out there who feel that way.
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Huh?
"Ban era" usually refers to the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) of 1994.
Fully transferable machine guns aren't "ban era". They are MG's registered prior to May 19, 1986.
Any machine guns manufactured after that date could only be transferred to police or military or for LE demonstration by an FFL/SOT.
The high prices of those fully transferrables are directly attributable to the Hughes Amendment to FOPA, which closed the registration of new machine guns. This finite supply and an increasing demand is what drove prices upward.
You never lose $$$ on an investment until you sell. So........dont sell.
Perfect!AlexanderA
Member
There's a further wrinkle to this. If the Hughes Amendment was repealed, I think you would have a "two-tier" market for machine guns. That is, (a) newly-made machine guns, and (b) old original classics such as the guns from the World Wars. The latter category would still have a "finite supply" and prices wouldn't be expected to go down much. Newly-made machine guns would sell at prices comparable to those of their semiautomatic cousins -- maybe even a little less to compensate for the bureaucratic delay in the transaction. The availability of newly-made clones of, say, classic Thompsons may have an effect on the prices of the originals, but then again, maybe not. The clones are easily distinguishable from the originals.
Jim Watson
Member
Hadn't thought of it that way but you are right. My area was "dry" up into the 1970s and then got a "county option" with wet towns in dry counties. The county didn't get liquor until some years laster.
OP
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N555
Member
People who bought cool iconic machine guns like M60, BAR, M1919 that no one has made for a long time and can't be converted from something else probably wont see a lot of competition.
If silencers are removed from the NFA expect prices to go up at least for a little while. I expect the United States would buy up the entire world inventory of silencers and things that look like silencers but arent.
If silencers are removed from the NFA expect prices to go up at least for a little while. I expect the United States would buy up the entire world inventory of silencers and things that look like silencers but arent.
dogtown tom
Member
I think the collectability of fully transferrables will keep their value where it is. An 07/SOT can make a dozen brand new Thompsons, M3's, M60's, etc tomorrow and they will never be as valuable to a collector as the real thing. A USFA clone of the Colt SAA is certainly every bit as good if not better than the real thing....but guys like me have little interest in USFA, Uberti, Cimarron or Heritage because they are not a genuine Colt. I'm that way about the Hi Power, and have little interest in whatever Springfield, Girsan, FEG, etc cloned, copied or counterfeited........I want a real FN Hi Power. And no, I dont care for the new FN High Power either. Thats for "collectibility" purposes, not for actual shootability.
Im not so sure about the market for silencers if they were removed from the NFA.
There remains a segment of society that thinks only criminals have need for a silencer. That includes supposed gun aficionados.
The increase in popularity of silencers goes hand in hand with states legalizing them for hunting, certainly that was the case here in Texas.
If silencers are removed from the NFA, yet remain Title I firearms, I'm sure we would see an immediate increase in sales. No $200 transfer tax and no wait would invite many newbies to the party.
That would affect the silencer market in several ways:
1. Increased demand and limited supply means you aren't going to see BOGO's, gift cards and discounts because sales will be brisk.
2. Every jackleg FFL with a CNC and hacksaw will start churning out tubes and baffles. "Fly By Night Silencers.........$59 each, three for $100!!!"
3. No transfer tax and no wait for a Form 1 approval means more home builds.
4. Current manufacturers would add extra shifts to meet the demand.
And guess what, the market will be saturated, prices drop, manufacturers will lay off workers, some manufacturers will go belly up and those that bought crap designs will send to ECCO to get fixed.
FFL/SOTs in business in 2016 remember the Great Silencer Panic. The impending 41F caused a nationwide panic over the new ATF regs requiring fingerprints for new applicants. OMG, OMG, MUH FINGERPRINTS!!!! GOTTA BUY BEFORE JULY 16th!!!! And guess what.....Silencerco added machines and extra shifts to meet the demand, new companies jumped into the silencer biz and guess what? Fingerprints weren't really that big of a deal. You could roll your own, you could use a FP scanner at your FFL/SOT. Once that silencer buying frenzy subsided in mid July the market returned to normal, Silencerco laid off hundreds, idled their new equipment and within a few years several silencer companies like Rebel, Blackhawk, Huntertown, etc went belly up.
With Ruger, S&W, Sig having their own silencer brands I would expect we would see "pistol+silencer" marketing. This is happening with pistols and RMR's now.
dogtown tom
Member
We have that now, but just for a certain few.
We have the finite supply of fully transferrables.
We have 07/SOTs manufacturing new machine guns for supposed sale to military and LE as demo guns....then using them as range rentals. When that FFL goes out of business they become "no law letter" machine guns. GunBroker has a couple of dozen up all the time. Interestingly, there are a few guys out there getting their 07/SOT, manufacturing hundreds of new machine guns, auto sears, lightening lings, Glock switches, etc.......the "give up that FFL/SOT so they can then sell off that inventory without need for another 07 to have a law letter. I have no doubt ATF will shut that practice down within the next year. Its not illegal, but ATF would likely argue its evading taxes.
Jim Watson
Member
The local range has rentals like that.
I once saw kind of a daisy chain of builders who had manufacturer's licenses. They would just swap their "samples" around among themselves for their own shooting fun. It was always fun to see what they brought along for side entertainment at the rifle matches I was shooting at the time.
I once saw kind of a daisy chain of builders who had manufacturer's licenses. They would just swap their "samples" around among themselves for their own shooting fun. It was always fun to see what they brought along for side entertainment at the rifle matches I was shooting at the time.
AlexanderA
Member
Ohio Ordnance Works is making semiautomatic BAR's in the $4,000 price range. If the Hughes Amendment was repealed, I'm sure they would shift over to fully automatic ones, for the same price.
Browning .30 cal. guns (aircooled and watercooled) are easy to produce, because the controlled part is the right sideplate, which is basically a flat piece of steel. Before the 1986 cutoff, there was quite a cottage industry of small shops making them.
The M60 is a special case. Unlike for the Browning guns, there is no single "controlled part" of the receiver. All the individual parts, such as the trunnion, the rails, the bottom channel, etc., can be found as uncontrolled parts. It's the assemblage that makes it the gun. Before the cutoff, RIA (the Illinois company) was doing this, and there's no reason why they couldn't do it again.
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