Disabled man denied permit because of disability...

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Autolycus

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From the St. Paul Pioneer Press website.


Blind man says gun permit does not make him dangerous
By DAVE KOLPACK
Associated Press Writer
Article Last Updated: 05/15/2007 03:32:08 PM CDT

FARGO, N.D.- A blind man who has concealed weapons permits in North Dakota and Utah says he's not a danger to society, even though he can't see the gun he's shooting.

Carey McWilliams, 33, says he has followed all the required rules, and he wants Minnesota to join other states that have granted him a concealed weapons permit. He says he was rejected first by a Minnesota county sheriff and then by a judge in that state.

"I'm trying to prove a point that people without sight still can carry (a gun) because brains are more important than eyesight in securing public safety," McWilliams said. "The shooter at Virginia Tech had really good eyesight and he killed 32 people."

Bill Bergquist, the Clay County, Minn., sheriff, said he felt bad about denying a permit for McWilliams.

"He's a super nice guy," Bergquist said. "But the application states that a person should be able to show proficiency on the firing range and a proficiency of the weapons. That's the issue.

"Sometimes I have to ask myself, what is right in this case? I felt when I denied it, he could have his day in court."

McWilliams said he completed the required class and shooting exercise by Paul Horvick, a National Rifle Association instructor. Horvick said he believes gun rights are private and would not comment on anyone he has taught or tested. Documents on Minnesota weapons hearings are sealed.

McWilliams said he uses special low-range, hollow-point bullets that are
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effective only in tight quarters.

"If I use a gun it will be at point-blank range, period," he said. "A sighted shooter is probably more dangerous because they can see something scary and pull their gun in haste."

Under Minnesota law, an applicant must be issued a license for a gun or a concealed weapon if he or she completes the class and shooting exercise and passes a background check—unless "there exists a substantial likelihood that the applicant is a danger to self or the public if authorized to carry a pistol under permit."

McWilliams believes Minnesota officials have violated his constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

"It's nobody business that I'm blind," he said.

McWilliams lives in a Fargo trailer park with his wife, Victoria. One of their neighbors, Jon Storley, accompanied McWilliams during his appeal to the Minnesota district court.

"He's not a nut, he's not a weirdo, he's not a freak," said Storley, a cab driver and rock musician. "I'm not a lawyer, but in this case I believe the judge was legislating from the bench."

Storley also said he doesn't blame Bergquist and Kirk for their decisions, calling the case "a kettle of worms."

Oddly enough, the permit McWilliams obtained from the state of Utah is recognized in 30 other states—including Minnesota. McWilliams said he had to complete a "firearms familiarity course" before receiving the Utah license.

"Basically they just passed around a couple of guns," McWilliams said.

McWilliams, who got his North Dakota permit in 2001, testified during the 2005 North Dakota legislative session against a proposal to drop the written part of the concealed weapons test. He told lawmakers it would allow people who are ignorant about firearm regulations to get permits. The test was eliminated.

The Legislature also decided to individual information about weapons permits confidential, said Liz Brocker, spokeswoman for the attorney general's office.

"All I can tell you is the total number of permits that have been issued," she said. The state has issued 8,030 permits, she said.

McWilliams lost his eyesight when he was 10 years old, after a series of headaches and gradual deterioration. It was a mystery to doctors.

He said he was a victim of domestic violence growing up and was stalked by gang members. "I've had situations where I would have felt threatened if I hadn't been carrying," he said.

McWilliams has written two books, including an autobiography published earlier this year that talks about his experiences in sky diving, scuba diving and deep sea fishing. He was in two segments of Michael Moore's antigun movie, "Bowling for Columbine," including a scene showing him cradling an AK-47 assault rifle.

Much of his autobiography is about his weapons training and testing.

"My permits together allow me, with reciprocity, to carry my gun in 30 states, one of which could be yours," he writes. "But never fear, with my extensive experience in firearms, I have take all reasonable measures to ensure the safety of others."

Link to article.
 
Unless this guy has some sort of uncanny 6th sense, it seems to me that it would be difficult for him to justify ever taking a defensive shot if he can't see what he's shooting at or what lies beyond it.
 
Legally many sheriff's dept. reserve the right to deny.
If the sheriff has ANY knowledge of the individual being a possible hazard they can deny the permit.

Some call it the "crazy guy clause" He can pass all the tests but has been seen arguing with fire hydrants, he is denied.
 
I know a blind person or two with their foid card. So far they've killed nothing but a couple trees.
 
Well, you know, it's not a license to shoot people, it's just a license to carry around a gun. You don't have to be able to see to carry around a gun. Right?

I know a blind man who owns a car. He doesn't drive it, but he owns it. My goodness, what if he decided to drive it? We better outlaw car ownership by blind people. :cool:

John
 
Several years ago, there was an incident where a blind guy, confined to a wheelchair, was able to successfully shoot his attacker. As I recall, it was an attempted mugging by force and the wheelchair bound man grabbed ahold of his attacker and popped him once or twice in the body. The shot(s) was contact/near contact. No aiming was involved. The attack was stopped.

I can't find the incident at this time, but maybe somebody will recall it. Once again, the intended victim was blind and in a wheelchair and he did successfully shoot his attacker. I believe the gun was a revolver.

For those of you worried about the legalities of the blind person using the sights or not, should s/he be in a shooting, I highly doubt that will be an issue in court. hee hee hee
 
I'll be honest, I'd feel wary if there were a blind person around with a firearm but what I feel doesn't matter. The 2nd Amendment doesn't make reservations about disabilities and neither will I. He has the right to carry the same as anyone else.
 
Right on JohnBT

It may sound scary to some. But I can't think of anyone more vulnerable than a blind person, when it comes to things such as personal attack or mugging.
 
Is this the same guy that was on a short news segment on Michael Moore's "Bowling for Clodumbine" or whatever. The blind guy with the gun.
 
I would defintely be concerned about a blind person carrying in public- there's an all too real possibility that they could mistake something innocuous for a felonious assault, and shoot somebody, believing that they are acting in self defense and turn out to have wrongfully killed somebody. I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to own guns, things may be more clearcut on the range, in his home, or afield if someone has a guide. Just packing on the street for a blind person leaves me with a sour feeling in my stomach.
 
dateline: FARGO...

Blind man shoots entire cast of "CSI:Fargo" during on-location filming of latest spinoff TV pilot.
 
Either way the 2nd Amendment does not say anything about disabilities. If he misuses the gun then he should be punished. What about older people with guns? We all know that vision deteriorates with age so should the elderly be allowed to carry firearms for protection?
 
Either way the 2nd Amendment does not say anything about disabilities. If he misuses the gun then he should be punished. What about older people with guns? We all know that vision deteriorates with age so should the elderly be allowed to carry firearms for protection?

We'll make it a given that there is a right to carry.

Refering to the landmark Parker ruling, RKBA is not an absolute right, as no right is absolute, yet a right it still is.

There is a much bigger difference between deteriorated or imperfect vision and blind- I assume in this instance, blind means really blind- not legally blind- which under most circumstances would still irk me if a legally blind individual.

Understanding this right, means that there needs to be a realization that one individual exercising it should not put the rest of society as a whole in an unnecessary and excessive state of danger that could be avoided. Isn't one of the basic principals of Utilitarian and Libertarian thought that one's exercise of a right should not negatively impact other non-consenting individuals?

Blind folks should be carrying guns as much as violent felons should be allowed to... neither should be publicly packing heat.
 
a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Who is the militia?

Any ABLE BODIED man woman or child capable of fighting (I forgot which document this is defined in)

I dunno, it sounds like this guy isn't able bodied to me. Not saying he has no rights, but I would say that he would need someone to be his eyes before he were to shoot. There's alot of risk associated with giving this guy a permit to carry.
 
I think many blind people are much more aware than most people give them credit for. It is quite different than someone with sight just closing thier eyes. They have become familiar with thier main sense and hear many sounds the rest of us wouldn't notice, building a picture of thier environment with sound. In fact I saw a kid that had learned to click and navigate with echo location so to speak. He was actualy capable of clicking and navigating places he had never been according the the sound of the vibrations.

So while a gun under the control of someone that cannot see makes me uneasy, I also know if I was blind due to an accident and fully capable of rational judgement, I would want to be allowed to have that last option of defense. When suddenly being beaten, blind, and thier life is flashing through thier eyes it should be an option for them to pull out a firearm and make a contact shot. Think of it not like shooting, but in terms of a hand to hand weapon more immediately effective.

On the flip side if this guy is one of those "look at my gun" outspoken gun toting people and blind at the same time I think it shows foolishness on his part because that last ditch unexpected help from a firearm will likely be stopped by his attacker with foreknowledge that he is packing. A criminal can study him for long periods of time scanning for where it could be without ever raising his suspicion and sneak up on him, then go for it as soon as attacking. So while he may have a right, his main advantage provided by that right will probably not exist if he needs it. If he chooses to take on the responsiblity of using lethal force he deserves to be treated no differently for liability. If that means going to prison as a blind man for making a poor judgement call he will have to deal with that and should be punished accordingly.

If I was handicapped, blind, in a wheelchair etc you can be sure I would have a firearm. I would be twice as vulnerable to assault and be twice as comforted knowing I still had options if attacked.
 
JohnBT,
I agree with your post.

HE should have his CCW permit - Period!

Attacked, down, already shot, knifed, he has a right to stop the immediate threat.
We all do.

Who is to say any sighted person, any one of us, could be blinded, either temporarily , even permanently, in a serious situation and have to use our CCWs!

Do we not advocate training and knowing one's firearms in the event of low light, no light, being shot and having to transition to weak side...and other survival means?


Most incidents occur in the bathroom, risk for falls.
So the way some think, this guy does not need a bathroom.
I bet he has a stove, so I guess we need to remove his stove, as he may set his home on fire, and endanger neighbors.

Gosh I sure hope some folks never get down, sick, injured or physically handicapped, because they just don't get "it".

It does not take a IDPA/IPSC shooter to stop a threat when you feel a knife on /in your body at bad breath distance and a threat needs to be stopped !
 
"He's a super nice guy," Bergquist said. "But the application states that a person should be able to show proficiency on the firing range and a proficiency of the weapons. That's the issue.
That IS the issue here. You can't fault the sheriff for following MN law here, wrong as it may be. I know his instructor, Paul Horvick (a member of this forum), and know he feels bad about what's happening to this guy. Too bad you've chosen to remain silent on this issue Paul.
 
I'm not happy this guy was denied.

I am against any Gun Control, Period!

This is what happens when a "law" gets enacted.
We get a bunch of "Meddling" and it really ticks me off!

We didn't have Stupid pieces of paper giving us "permission" to carry a damn gun when I was growing up.
We carried, Period.
I carried as kid! Men, women, young, old, physically limited including the blind, it does not matter one whit.
A human right is a human right.

About damn time some folks read the Oath they take in regard to "defending against all enemies, foreign and domestic".
They also need to read what COTUS defines Gov't as Gov't business and quit meddling!

Dick, was blinded in Korea. He carried, and we did not have "permits". He was extraordinary, I did not know he was blind when I first met him.
I mean he walked over, shook hands, offered a drink, went to fix my drink and I had stuck a smoke in my mouth and he lit my smoke with a Zippo.
Totally blind! Mind you.

He shot often, he and his wife, close friends and I was added to this tight knit bunch.
He was out with the guys since his wife had the ladies over, and some punk came up to one of the sighted guys.
Dick put him down. I mean put him down using his skills learned in the Military.
"Dick he has a knife".
"Not for long he won't".
Cops called and there Dick was with his hand on his holstered gun.
Perp complained to the Cop.
Cop said Dick could shoot better than most folks on the force.


Shelly, blinded at birth, carried, and had since a kid. I mean a blind girl, real attractive and her parents taught her to shoot.
Daughter was not going to attacked, raped or robbed.
She also liked shotguns, and could stand there all day and never miss low 7.
I could "coach" and she has run straights in skeet.
She even took deer with her daddy a few times, before he was killed in a car wreck.
She was my neighbor for a bit, and she had a seeing eye dog.
Still she carried concealed, no permit, and we laughed about her "Driver's License".

I grew up around Vets, some in bad shape. WE had some riots and one Vet, blind in one eye, no legs, and he was going through a bad time being sick, was come in on and he stopped that threat, with his Colt 1911, lying in bed.
His wife had her double barrel shotgun on BG number 2 and upon hearing the shot, BG 2 decided this "couple" was a big big mistake.



I guess Tyranny Succeeded again.
We got Gun Control, in the guise of "permission slips", and now Tyranny can continue to erode Freedom by denying Human Rights as well.

I guess when we all end up in a Cell, or taking Gas Showers or whatever all this Touchy Feel Good the Gov't did to Protect Us will be worth it.

Oh what is really great, now everyone knows this poor guy was denied.
Might as well send invitations to Bad Guys R Us .

Real frigging smart! If this guy gets hurt, I hope he sues the pants of all that denied him.

Tyranny can go pound sand up their rear ends !

Pretty obvious how I feel if this guy should decide carry without a permit...
 
From the NRA Rules of Gun Safety:

Know your target and what is beyond.


Although I wholeheartedly agree that the blind dude has the right to carry a gun, its my personal opinion that it is terribly immature and irresponsible that he wants to. Unfortunately, this guy does not have the common sense to realize that its a bad idea, or its a publicity stunt (probably to promote his book).
 
I don't think it's a good idea for him to carry a gun for defense. Why? He can't see what's beyond his target, and he has no way of knowing for sure if what he's shooting at is threatening him or another person (beyond say 30 feet).

The Second Amendment does not guarantee the right of CCW. Why? Because CCW does not contribute to a well-regulated militia. Carrying a military weapon does, but carrying a handgun concealed where it takes more than a second to fire does not. CCW is just a politically correct means of defense and guaranteed by the Declaration of Independance ( ...right to life... ).

He should carry a knife or nunchaku though. That I'd support 100%. Carrying a ranged weapon though... not a safe idea.
 
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