Disagreement with Hornady Die setup, 30-06

[anothernewb]

helping a friend load up 30-06 rounds. Using the Hornady dies, and we ran into an issue.

According to Hornady instructions, we set the resizing die to just contact the shell holder. basically, hornady says no cam over.

okay, well and good. However, resized rounds would not chamber, they were all tight at the shoulder.

Since he uses the rounds in more than one gun, neck sizing only may not work, unless I can get him to mark rounds specific to rifle - but that's another discussion.

So I reset the die to cam over a bit and bump the shoulder back - and the resultant rounds chambered just fine, some maybe a tad on the tighter side.

we have no case gauge, was thinking maybe that should be an investment. Then again,

The question I have is wondering what kind of error I could introduced by changing the die settings away from manufacturer instructions. I wonder why hornady says no cam over, My rifle dies (RCBS) all say set s slight cam over. I wonder if there might be a slight difference in setup since I'm using an RCBS shell holder vs a hornady one. perhaps a hornady shell holder with the dies might be what is needed?

thoughts/opinions?

 

[FLIGHT762]

we have no case gauge, was thinking maybe that should be an investment.

A case gauge will be one of the best investments in reloading tools. It can determine exactly where your F/L resizing die needs to be set to properly bump the shoulders to the fired cases from your rifle. I use several case gauges, but my favorite is the Hornady set. With a dial or digital caliper, it will tell you exactly where you need to be, the number don't lie. The Hornady set can also be used for multiple calibers.

As far as camming over with Hornady F/L dies, I cam over slightly for my set in 7MM Magnum. I don't think there is an issue with doing it. You do have to F/L / Bump the shoulders properly for the brass to fit the Rifle's chamber. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[jwrowland77]

Well, the same thing happened to me and my daughters .243. I followed instructions, set them up, like I had 5 other die sets, and the rounds were extremely hard to chamber, some wouldn't.

I had to set it up to have a hard cam-over for them to chamber. I'm using a Hornady shell holder. I'm actually contemplating taking just a hair off the top where the die meets the holder, that way there's not such a hard cam-over.

 

[jwrowland77]

I had to make a full turn in to just get the case to fit the rifle.

 

[fguffey]

who knows, a short chamber?

F. Guffey

 

[Robert101]

It is very dependent on chamber specifications. To properly fit one of my chambers I use .015 off-set between the top of shell holder to bottom of sizing die. I basically tune my off-set to the chamber. Essentially you are tuning the cartridge to your chamber. We do this with bullet seating all the time. It seems you have done the same thing.

 

[jwrowland77]

anothernewb, I would suggest jwrowland77 consider his cases are too tuff to size or the press has too much flex or he should consider annealing, he has a neighbor that was offered a deal on annealing equipment and a lecture on 'how to' as in the 'how's and whys'.

I might have to contact said neighbor. Been awhile since I talked to him. May have to give him a call today.

 

[fguffey]

I had to scroll up to determine what forum this was. He does not participate on this forum, my mistake.

F. Guffey

 

[jwrowland77]

I had to scroll up to determine what forum this was. He does not participate on this forum, my mistake.



F. Guffey

I just noticed myself. I'll still have to give him a holler. Lol

 

[RAT807]

I have a set of Hornady Nitride dies for 9mm. Instructions say not to cam over as you may damage the die. With the component shortage, I had to buy a Redding shell holder til the Hornady one was available. After switching to the Hornady shell holder, I experienced a few problems with rounds not passing the plunk test where before it was fine. The Redding holder is shorter from the floor to the top of the holder, than the Hornady shell holder, allowing more of the case to be sized with the Redding holder. With a case in the holder, I can get a modified feeler gauge of .003 to fit under the case. With the Hornady holder it was more like .008 -.012 Cant remember exactly

NOTE: IF you insert something under a case while resizing / depriming, you will have problems and could break the decapping pin. I Deprime all brass first and then remove the decapping pin. Resizing is now safe!

 

[cfullgraf]

I have a set of Hornady Nitride dies for 9mm. Instructions say not to cam over as you may damage the die.

This is true for titanium nitride or carbide dies. The carbide ring is brittle and undue force on it, such as camming over the press, can crack it.

Not true for steel resizing dies.

These days, virtually all rifle resizing dies are steel.

 

[gamestalker]

I've wondered about this too? Does Hornady use a carbide or titanium nitride insert or something similar in their bottle neck dies? Other wise, why couldn't you adjust them down to cam over as needed to bump the shoulders back enough for chamber fit. The instructions are pretty adamant about no cam over, bold letter statement.

GS

 

[fguffey]

Rat807, I sure want to thank you the correction, I made up a name like 'deck', from now on I will refer to it as floor. Floor height, that even has a better sound.

Hornady use a carbide or titanium nitride insert

Something else I did not know, seems the value would be reflected in the price. In fact, I just sold a 223 Dillon Carbide sizing die, I was unaware anyone made bottle neck dies with inserts.

F. Guffy

 

[cfullgraf]

I've wondered about this too? Does Hornady use a carbide or titanium nitride insert or something similar in their bottle neck dies? Other wise, why couldn't you adjust them down to cam over as needed to bump the shoulders back enough for chamber fit. The instructions are pretty adamant about no cam over, bold letter statement.

GS

I do not think they put any carbide ring in the bottle neck dies. Just steel.

It looks like the instructions are vaguely written generic instructions. They talk about lubricating cases and stuck cases, they have a section on mouth expansion dies, the parts lists show handgun and rifle specific parts.

But, i did not stay at a Holliday Inn Express last night so I could be wrong.

 

[30Cal]

There are carbide resizing dies for bottlenecks (Dillon and Redding both have an option). They're a little spendy.

I'd start with a case comparator rather than a gage. That way you can take your fired case, measure and set the shoulder back by just a tad (0.002-0.004"). You can get similar results by sizing just a weeeee bit a time and seeing if the bolt will roll closed with just fingertip pressure (have the strip the bolt on most rifles to do this with any certainty though).

Anyway, if you size too much, it'll significantly shorten your case life and possibly create an excess headspace problem. A tiny turn of the die goes a long long way.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

So I reset the die to cam over a bit and bump the shoulder back - and the resultant rounds chambered just fine, some maybe a tad on the tighter side.

The question I have is wondering what kind of error I could introduced by changing the die settings away from manufacturer instructions. I wonder why hornady says no cam over, My rifle dies (RCBS) all say set s slight cam over. I wonder if there might be a slight difference in setup since I'm using an RCBS shell holder vs a hornady one. perhaps a hornady shell holder with the dies might be what is needed?

thoughts/opinions?

I don't think you can cause any error with turning the die down slightly so that the sized case chambers correctly.

You don't have to match the die and shell holder by company name. Sometimes they are made to slightly different specs but they all usually work well together.

 

[Potatohead]

I havent read every post so maybe Im way off here, but I think all the reloading manufacturers could use some help in the instructions writing department. At least with the RCBS and Lee ones that Im privy to.

Maybe Im just thick headed but the RCBS directions that came with my 223 dies were just kind of indiscriminately splattered throughout the little fold out pamphlet in no particular order, with at least one important part missing as far as I can tell. Ive never really been known for my high level of reading comprehension though

 

[tightgroup tiger]

My rifle dies (RCBS) all say set s slight cam over. I wonder if there might be a slight difference in setup since I'm using an RCBS shell holder vs a hornady one. perhaps a hornady shell holder with the dies might be what is needed?

What Arch Angle said.

You screw in the die until it hits the shell holder no matter who's die or shell holder. How can they work any differently with a single stage or a progressive. If you have a tight chamber in your rifle and this doesn't work, you may have to buy small base dies to compensate for it. Whether you realize it or not having a tighter chamber rather than a looser chamber that will accept anything, is a really good thing. I have a 30-06 Browning that won't shoot factory ammo well at all. The only box of factory ammo I ran through it was the box they gave me with it when I bought it. There were 7 rounds out of 20 I could close the bolt on. Technically the rifle was defective but the gunsmith at the store told me if I wanted a replacement rifle for it he would give me one but my original rifle was going home with him.

He then told me that He'd never seen me buy factory ammo as long as he'd known me and this rifle was a handloaders dream. I told him I'd be taking my rifle back home with me and I just needed to understand what was wrong. I never regretted that decision. That Browning is still my most accurate rifle out of my 17 rifles I own. I just had to learn how to load for it.

I did turn down my shell holder down in my lathe to make up the difference and set my Forster competition dies accordingly. WHOA!

I think you need to ask questions on how to handload for this rifle of yours instead of what's wrong with your dies. Your chamber sounds like it's undersized and that's much better than being oversized.

Just my opinion.

 

[rskent]

I did turn down my shell holder down in my lathe to make up the difference and set my Forster competition dies accordingly. WHOA!

Funny thing, I use an extra thick shell holder to re size my 223 cases a smidgin longer. You need to measure your fired cases and re-size accordingly for sure.

 

[fguffey]

I use an extra thick shell holder to re size my 223 cases a smidgin longer.

Wouldn't you know it, I do not have a smidgen gage or a way to convert smidgens. Where did you get the 'extra thick' shell holders?

F. Guffey

 

[243winxb]

RCBS Instructions

The head to datum measurement, when compared to just touching the shell holder to cam over, is about .004" difference. In other words, came over will set the shoulder back as much as .004" more. Cam over also helps to square the shell holder to the FL die. Best to set the lock ring when shell holder & die are in full lockup/cam over. Standard shell holder deck heigth is about .125"

 

[fguffey]

The head to datum measurement, when compared to just touching the shell holder to cam over, is about .004" difference. In other words, came over will set the shoulder back as much as .004" more. Cam over also helps to square the shell holder to the FL die. Best to set the lock ring when shell holder & die are in full lockup/cam over. Standard shell holder deck heigth is about .125"

Funny thing, I use an extra thick shell holder to re size my 223 cases a smidgen longer. You need to measure your fired cases and re-size accordingly for sure.

When my die contacts the shell holder? That's it. My die can not get closer than touching, my shell holders nor can my dies can be crushed. What I can do is increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

There is no guarantee adjusting the die with an additional 1/4 to 1/2 turn will reduce the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head. It could be necessary to adjust the die 1/2 to 3/4 to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. Then there is a mistake in thinking all presses are equal with the same ability to overcome resistance. No one ask" 'What press are you using?'

I have instructions from a manufacturer of reloading equipment that go back to 1950. In the beginning the press bumped or it did not bump, the instructions covered both presses.

The Redding holder is shorter from the floor to the top of the holder,

243winxb, do you believe it is too late for Rat807 to get his money back. Has it been decided if the members? are going to call it floor or deck?
F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

The head to datum measurement, when compared to just touching the shell holder to cam over, is about .004" difference. In other words, came over will set the shoulder back as much as .004" more. Cam over also helps to square the shell holder to the FL die. Best to set the lock ring when shell holder & die are in full lockup/cam over. Standard shell holder deck heigth is about .125"

Funny thing, I use an extra thick shell holder to re size my 223 cases a smidgen longer. You need to measure your fired cases and re-size accordingly for sure.

When my die contacts the shell holder? That's it. My die can not get closer than touching, my shell holders nor can my dies can be crushed. What I can do is increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

There is no guarantee adjusting the die with an additional 1/4 to 1/4 turn will reduce the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head. It could be necessary to adjust the die 1/2 to 3/4 to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. Then there is a mistake in thinking all presses are equal with the same ability to overcome resistance. No one ask" 'What press are you using?'

I have instructions from a manufacturer of reloading equipment that go back to 1950. In the beginning the press bumped or it did not bump, the instructions covered both presses.

F. Guffey

RAT807,

The Redding holder is shorter from the floor to the top of the holder,

Call them, get your money back or ask them for another shell holder.

 

[cfullgraf]

There is no guarantee adjusting the die with an additional 1/4 to 1/2 turn will reduce the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head.

I agree but...

Frequently, when I set up a sizing die, I set shell holder to touch the die. Frequently when I put a case in the press to size it, I then see day light between the die and the shell holder. To eliminate the day light, I have to turn the die down a little.

When sizing, the slop in the press linkage and any flex in the press is being taken up.

This variability will vary from press to press and once all the variability is taken up, no additional turning of the sizing die will change anything with the case.

 

[fguffey]

There is no guarantee adjusting the die with an additional 1/4 to 1/4 turn will reduce the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head.

I agree but...

It could be necessary to adjust the die 1/2 to 3/4 to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. Then there is a mistake in thinking all presses are equal with the same ability to overcome resistance. No one ask" 'What press are you using?'

Daylight? I can not measure daylight so I guess you have outdone me. I measure the gap with a feeler gage, I do not insist on eliminating the gap I am the one that put the gap there to begin with. I know the length of the chamber, I know the deck height of the shell holder, I know the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder of the die. When compared to case length from the shoulder to the case head the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder of the die for the 30/06 is .005" shorter than a go-gage length chamber.

Back to the gap of day light, when sizing a case for one of my chambers a gap of .003" can be perfect for a fit, I can not measure day light, I can measure a gap without crawling under the bench.

F. Guffey

Finding fault with the instructions? The instructions are not tailored for the choir. Reading through the responses suggest the choir can not agree on methods and or techniques.