Disappointing Performance

[goemado]

Took the trusty Remington BDL 30.06 to the range yesterday. I spent the past winter improving the rifle - including free-floating the barrel, installing pillars, bedding the rifle with Devcon bedding material and re-finishing the stock - never did like the glossy BDL look or the plastic end caps - so I replaced them with a fine satin finish and new ebony fore end tip and grip cap. Prior to all this, a gunsmith improved the trigger down to about 3.5 lbs. The rifle is about 8 years old. There's probably been 400-500 rounds put through it - I doubt the barrel (factory sporter) is shot out.

Performance from the rifle before my "improvements" were groups measuring 1.5" 100 yard 5 shot groups with factory ammo (Remington premier Accutips and Core-Loks in 150 grain).

Post "improvements" - using the same ammo (weight, brand, bullet) - were groups measuringl 1.5" at 100 yards (5 shots). No improvement.

I have not yet tried different bullet weights. My expectation was for the rifle to improve to 1" or less @ 100 yards. I did try using a front pressure pad (field improvised with a pice of cardboard from the flap of a bullet box - no improvement so removed after 2 groups of 5 were shot).

All groups were shot from a Caldwell lead-sled.

As a hunting rifle used on Michigan whitetail, the accuracy is just fine - the rifle has never failed to connect on the first shot when the opportunity was presented. However, I'm looking for 'bragging rights" in deer camp (I have some buddies with field howitzers - magnum rifles - who struggle to hold 3 inch circles at 100 yards). I'd like to be the reasonable one with a moa/sub moa shooter.

Looking for suggestions that may help bring this rifle in under 1". I think there may be some opportunity with bullet weight and likely, with hand loading.

Deer camp is approaching...bragging rights are needed.

Appreciate any advice for improvement.

 

[dakotasin]

you need to try different ammo. you have definitely changed the harmonics of the rifle, and it will respond differently. also, shooting factory ammo is a crap shoot, unless you have identical lot numbers, how can you really know what's changed? find a handloader and get a load tuned for your rifle. you'll be amazed.

next... are you sure the bedding is right? bad bedding will make things far worse.

next... crown. just go spend the $40 and get a good crown put on, and that will rule out that possibility.

good luck!

 

[Stinger]

It sounds like you did all of the things that are typical of accurizing a rifle. On hunting rifles, it is usually not worth the effort. As we all know, shooting in the field is different, even when a great rest is available. MOST people are not able to shoot quite as well.

First of all, 1.5" is not bad. I know that is not what you want to hear, especially after all of the work you put in. With factory ammo, that is usually the average in my Rem700 30'06 and .243. Handloading shrinks those groups significantly and both will shoot sub-MOA. That only occurred with significant load development, so even if you don't handload, try all the different ammo you can afford. I would be surprised if you couldn't find MOA accuracy with the right ammo.

Secondly, I doubt your barrel is worn out. But it might need a good cleaning. Some rifles like a little copper fouling (maybe a lot) and some don't perform well with any. Scrub it down with a good copper remover like Sweets 7.62 and then try again. This rifle might just not be capable of super small groups. There is nothing wrong with that, even though it would be disconcerting to someone with high expectations.

I don't mean this as a hijack and this doesn't have to do with the accuracy, per se...does the lead sled allow the rifle to freely recoil? I don't think it does, and that could be detrimental because once you take it off the sled, it will shoot to a different point of impact. It probably wouldn't be noticable at short distances, but could really be a problem at long distances.

 

[YodaVader]

I assume you did give the barrel a good cleaning before conducting the accuracy tests with the new upgrades? Reason I say is because my centerfire rifles , a Rem 700LTR and Savage 12BVSS, will deliver their best accuracy a few rounds after a very good cleaning. The Savage especially needs to be cleaned often or the groups really open up. Before shooting my 700 yesterday I gave it a cleaning and fired one of my best series of groups ever.

If you are certain the barrel is not copper fouled I would try a few diferent types of ammo. Yes , reloading is the best way to match a load to a rifle. And with reloading you have the option of using match bullets , not ideal for hunting but great for bragging rights at the range before the hunting season begins.

Edit to add: Well looks like Stinger beat me to the clean barrel suggestion! I am very slow at typing. But he does bring up a good point on the lead sled , is it the same system you used to test the rifle with before the work was performed?

 

[Jim Watson]

Splurge on some factory match ammunition - you do not indicate you handload - to see what it will do at its best.
Contrary to the free advertising in gunzines, 1.5 MOA with common softpoints ain't bad.

 

[Tokugawa]

Look at it like this- how would you feel if it had gone to a 3" group? You had some fun, the rifle looks a lot better, and shoots as good as ever. a win win.

 

[rangerruck]

before you try diff ammo, try this. put a little spacer pad up front under the bbl, at the tip of the stock. go to home despot, and get them, hard little rubber clear pads, that you use for cabinet or drawer stoppers. take one of the pads, and shave a flat spot on the top of them, so the bbl rests flatly. then tighten the bbl back down, very loosely at first, till it just snugs up to the stock. then check for accuracy. make sure the action screw up front stays loose, but in the same place between shots. if it is not more accurate, give it a half twist, fire another 3 shot group. Somewhere in there, you should find a sweet spot. if you don't ever find a sweet spot,then the up front pad did not help you; sometimes it doesn't , but most of the time, it does.

 

[Art Eatman]

I've worked up several loads for my pet '06 that shoot inside of one MOA. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the Federal premium High Energy stuff groups just as tightly. It ain't cheap, but it sure did work.

Ya never know. I found some white-box Winchester Silvertip at Wally-World, cheap, and it wouldn't group so much as it patterned.

Art

 

[45Badger]

Time for you to start reloading!

My son and I both have Remington 700 rifles in .243 Winchester. His is an ADL, mine is a BDL. Bought both used, with unknown (but relatively low) round counts. Both shot 2-4" groups with 100 grain Federal ammo.

I got very lucky at the reloading bench when I found a load that works great in both rifles (100 grain Hornady inter-lock BTSP over 39 gr of 4350). Off sand bags, they both shoot 5 shots in a 3/4# group.

And they've worked very well on the 5 deer that we have shot with these guns.

 

[Titan6]

The only thing I will add is that there is no way your barrel is shot out after 400-500 rounds. Broken in just barely I would say. Also I would say that cardboard makes a terrible pressure pad. It absorbs moisture until you heat it and then expels it in the form of steam reducing it's volume. The silcon pad as suggested above is a good idea.

 

[cracked butt]

I spent the past winter improving the rifle - including free-floating the barrel

Like others have said, try different ammo first.

All of your bedding improvements may have been counteracted by removing the pressure bedding on the front of the stock also. There is a very good reason why Remington and others pressure bed the front of the barrel and it's not because their factory barrels are premium

 

[Caimlas]

What you could do is get an SKS, Mosin Nagant or similar beater milsurp that's "a piece of junk" and still show them up, year after year.

From my understanding of things, the best rifle isn't the bragging point in deer camp - it's the best buck - specifically, the best buck brought back in the least amount of time, year after year. When you're back in deer camp drinking coffee before 10am on a sub-freezing morning, with a buck in the bed of your truck - all while the others are still out hiding in the woods - you'll be able to sit there smugly and let your accomplishments do the bragging for you.

Of course, that would require you to improve your hunting game a bit, too (provided you don't already do this).

 

[goemado]

Caimlas,

As luck would have it, I have been the most successful of the group. I've tagged out more often and quicker than the others - with generally bigger racks...I'm not looking to improve my rifle because it doesn't get the job done for me.

I have one buddy who had a Model 94 Winchester in 30-30 - wonderful rifle for Michigan's deer woods. Thought he needed something bigger for that mythical future trip out west and those prehistoric critters that he'll be shooting out there...so he purchased a 300 WSM. Can't shoot it for anything....has the crescent scar over his eye as witness to the fact - and a three legged deer harvested last season as further proof (deer was a little over 225 yards in an open field - buddy plain missed the first two shots (seated with a shooting rail) - third one removed a hind leg at the knee. Fourth shot was standing over the wounded deer to dispatch it). I dropped my deer with one shot at around 75 yards. It moved about 25 yards from the point of impact and was done. My point is that a reasonable rifle that is taken care of and capable - such as a MOA .30-06 - is a much better tool for just about any N.A. critter my gang or I will ever happen across (not planning on any moose or bear hunts) than a howitzer that can't hit anything. The hope was having some paper targets with holes clover leafed together for those conversations at night when barley pops are cracked and talk turns to the weapon of choice for the big hunt - and the need for horsepower over accurate shot placement. These were the reasons for my desire to get this rifle shooting as accurate as possible. That and it made for a good reason to haul out the shooting irons when it was -20 degrees outside last winter....

Back to the topic....One other option that I am curious about concerns fire lapping the barrel. I did purchase a pre-loaded fire lapping (David Tubbs) kit - but have read mixed reviews and wanted to exhaust other options before trying this. It may be time to give it a try. Wondering what the general opinion is on the board regarding this - any positive negative experience with fire-lapping production rifle barrels?

I tend to agree with what others have written - that there is work to be done with respect to the ammunition and the fore end pressure pad. I was disappointed that my field experiment didn't improve the results - but my execution (using card board) could be to blame.

I'm going to try better quality ammunition in various weights (curious whether 165/168 grain will perform better than the 150 grain I tested). I am curious what is considered pre-loaded premium ammunition - I had considered Federal Premium to be pretty good - though I've seen loads from Hornady and others. Are there particular brands/loads of commercial ammunition that would be recommended?

When time allows, I'll get into re-loading and see what I can do with developing a pet load - I think this will be the biggest improvement opportunity.

 

[Whitman31]

Just a comment, my 700 BDL in 22-250 won't do better than 2.5" groups with factory ammo. With handloads I can get it under 1 MOA, some loads as good as 5/8". The only improvements I've made is adjusting the trigger myself.

 

[dakotasin]

i've done the tubbs thing a couple times. in two rifles there was no appreciable difference in accuracy or velocity. in the last rifle there was a tremendous decrease in accuracy and a slight increase in accuracy.

 

[rangerruck]

once, for craps and giggles, I used part of a 410 shotgun plastic shell, as my upfront pressure pad, worked like a champ!!!

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Stinger offers good advice.


I would like to add something else. The scope. I've noticed that on scopes, even those costing $300ish, there can be 1" or 1.5" worth of parallax at 100 yards, even if the scope is suppose to be parallax free at that range. Just inconsistencies in scopes. Some scopes that are 9x come in at 9.5, others at 8.5 ...things like that. They are not all perfect on parallax setting either. Really good scopes that you can count on being "on" are top dollar. If you have an adjustable objective, even that can be difficult to really tune down to be truly parallax free on some scopes.


Factory barrels. Not all factory barrels are MOA. The few that are, are diamonds in the rough. Internet makes it seem like MOA is pretty much guaranteed if you handload. That isn't true. Handloading gets you down to MOA or better IF the barrel is capable of it. Otherwise, like FF, bedding and other accurizing tricks, it goes wasted. A lot of times, handloading produces worse results until you find a good load, and then that load is equal to a premium factory load. Making you wonder why you bothered in the first place. With handloading, you'll discover a lot of bad loads too in addition to the good ones. Premium factory is made to be a good, well rounded generic round with the highest chances of being accurate in any gun. That means it won't be the most accurate in one particular gun, but should be decent in most.

I think it was Clint Smith's theory, I could be wrong - memory doesn't serve me here. But I like this idea. When you have a particular rifle - shoot a known good load. For example, a .308 with a 168gr SMK doing 2,610 with IMR. That's one of the all time most popular acccuracy loads. Tens of thousands of custom rifles and higher end factory rifles are sub-MOA with that load. Probably better to just buy that load from Black Hills or Federal Gold Medal and shoot it. If it doesn't perform well, you can pretty much assume that handloading isn't going to win you a lot more accuracy. Save the time an aggravation.

Cleaning is important. Don't mess around here. Go buy some Tipton's Truly Remarkable or some equivalent copper solvent. I think Tipton's is the strongest. Give it a good cleaning. Invest in jags. They work.

There's user error or skill level too.


Whatever the case, 1.5moa is pretty darn GOOD in my view. You're probably never going to reproduce such accuracy in the field. Don't let the Internet work you up into the mentality that if you aren't shooting MOA or better, you're doing something wrong. That simply isn't true and a lot of people get frustrated for no reason whatsoever based on that.

I rarely see sub-MOA groups at the range. Was there yesterday in fact, whole 100 yard line was full of Rem 700's and some custom rigs. The super-expensive custom jobs were doing MOA mostly or better, the rest were not producing the Internet MOA that's become some sort of expectation or requirement, otherwise there's a "problem" ...

 

[cracked butt]

I think it was Clint Smith's theory, I could be wrong - memory doesn't serve me here. But I like this idea. When you have a particular rifle - shoot a known good load. For example, a .308 with a 168gr SMK doing 2,610 with IMR. That's one of the all time most popular acccuracy loads. Tens of thousands of custom rifles and higher end factory rifles are sub-MOA with that load. Probably better to just buy that load from Black Hills or Federal Gold Medal and shoot it. If it doesn't perform well, you can pretty much assume that handloading isn't going to win you a lot more accuracy. Save the time an aggravation.

I agree with that also. Some loads do shoot extrememly well in most guns and are used pretty universally whether they ar efactory match loads or handloaded duplicates of the match loads.