MrAcheson
Member
IIRC Taylors has exclusive rights to the patent for the helical-bored cylinders from Ken Howell. Which is why the other sites list Howell cylinders for the NMA, but they're all 5 shot and straight-bored.
Disaster - blew up a '58 Remmy conversion
- Thread starter Beauhooligan
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IIRC Taylors has exclusive rights to the patent for the helical-bored cylinders from Ken Howell. Which is why the other sites list Howell cylinders for the NMA, but they're all 5 shot and straight-bored.
MrArcheson said:
I've seen the six chambered angled cylinders for sale a number of places. For example, MidwayUSA has them. Or you can buy them directly from the manufacturer, Howell Old West Conversions.
Well, it depends on how far you take it.
First I am very glad the OP is unhurt.
You can get a new gun.
I buy 1K bullets at a time and weigh each bullet into .5g lots
I also weigh each case and weigh into .5g lots of 50.
I use a slower powder of which I weigh each charge to 12.5g
I weigh each case again after priming and record the weight range.
Put that all together you can tell a double charge or no charge if you weigh the finished round.
Most folks say that is too much work.
I say it is cheap insurance
First I am very glad the OP is unhurt.
You can get a new gun.
I buy 1K bullets at a time and weigh each bullet into .5g lots
I also weigh each case and weigh into .5g lots of 50.
I use a slower powder of which I weigh each charge to 12.5g
I weigh each case again after priming and record the weight range.
Put that all together you can tell a double charge or no charge if you weigh the finished round.
Most folks say that is too much work.
I say it is cheap insurance
MrAcheson
Member
You might be right with the Midway cylinder. Howells does not sell the helical-bored cylinders on his site though. The one you linked to is .44 Colt (heeled bullet) and is straight-bored just like the .38 special guns. The .45 colt cylinders he sells on his site are 5 shot with safety notches.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
OK, let's try this again.
When Kenny Howell first decided to make a cartridge conversion cylinder for the 1858 Remington 44 caliber C&B revolvers he ran into a problem. The rifling groove diameter of the typical 44 Remington is right around .451 or so, perfect for the 45 Colt cartridge. However the frame size, and consequently the cylinder size of a Remington 44 C&B revolver is too small to allow the cylinder to be made with 6 chambers. Restricted by the actual distance between the center of the cylinder center pin and the center of the bore, if six 45 Colt chambers were bored in a cylinder of that diameter, the rims of the cartridges would overlap. It simply is not possible to put six straight bored chambers into a cylinder that size when bored for 45 Colt, because the rims of the cartridges will interfere with each other.
So Howell came up with an ingenious solution. He canted each chamber out by about 1/2 of one degree. This way, even though the chamber throats all line up with the bore, there is enough spacing at the rear of the cylinder for the rims to all sit flat without interfering with each other.
That is what we are talking about here. If you have a six shot conversion cylinder for a Remington 1858 revolver, the chambers have to be angled out a tiny bit at the rear for the rims to all fit.
That is what Taylors bought from Kenny Howell. The right to make a six shot cylinder with angled chambers for a Remington 1858 C&B revolver. Yes, Taylors is a distributor. They have the exclusive rights to distribute such cylinders to other vendors as well as to sell them directly to consumers. Yes, you can buy such a cylinder from Midway. They bought it from Taylors.
Kenny Howell's Old West Conversions is not selling a six shot 45 Colt cylinder for 1858 Remingtons. He sold his rights to that to Taylors. 44 Colt, yes. Dragoons and other revolvers with larger cylinders yes. But not a six shot 45 Colt cylinder for an 1858 Remington, which is what blew up in the Original Post.
Incidentally, the other manufacturer of conversion cylinders, Kirst, got around the same problem by only chambering the cylinder with 5 chambers, there is a 'dummy' chamber that does not accept any cartridges.
And there is not a problem with the Ruger Old Army either, because it is a bigger gun and the chambers do not have to be angled out to fit in six 45 Colt chambers.
And just in case anybody is wondering, 1/2 of one degree of angle does not affect anything. My Remmies with their R&D cylinders are easily the most accurate 45 Colt revolvers I own. More accurate than my Colts, Rugers, or clones.
When Kenny Howell first decided to make a cartridge conversion cylinder for the 1858 Remington 44 caliber C&B revolvers he ran into a problem. The rifling groove diameter of the typical 44 Remington is right around .451 or so, perfect for the 45 Colt cartridge. However the frame size, and consequently the cylinder size of a Remington 44 C&B revolver is too small to allow the cylinder to be made with 6 chambers. Restricted by the actual distance between the center of the cylinder center pin and the center of the bore, if six 45 Colt chambers were bored in a cylinder of that diameter, the rims of the cartridges would overlap. It simply is not possible to put six straight bored chambers into a cylinder that size when bored for 45 Colt, because the rims of the cartridges will interfere with each other.
So Howell came up with an ingenious solution. He canted each chamber out by about 1/2 of one degree. This way, even though the chamber throats all line up with the bore, there is enough spacing at the rear of the cylinder for the rims to all sit flat without interfering with each other.
That is what we are talking about here. If you have a six shot conversion cylinder for a Remington 1858 revolver, the chambers have to be angled out a tiny bit at the rear for the rims to all fit.
That is what Taylors bought from Kenny Howell. The right to make a six shot cylinder with angled chambers for a Remington 1858 C&B revolver. Yes, Taylors is a distributor. They have the exclusive rights to distribute such cylinders to other vendors as well as to sell them directly to consumers. Yes, you can buy such a cylinder from Midway. They bought it from Taylors.
Kenny Howell's Old West Conversions is not selling a six shot 45 Colt cylinder for 1858 Remingtons. He sold his rights to that to Taylors. 44 Colt, yes. Dragoons and other revolvers with larger cylinders yes. But not a six shot 45 Colt cylinder for an 1858 Remington, which is what blew up in the Original Post.
Incidentally, the other manufacturer of conversion cylinders, Kirst, got around the same problem by only chambering the cylinder with 5 chambers, there is a 'dummy' chamber that does not accept any cartridges.
And there is not a problem with the Ruger Old Army either, because it is a bigger gun and the chambers do not have to be angled out to fit in six 45 Colt chambers.
And just in case anybody is wondering, 1/2 of one degree of angle does not affect anything. My Remmies with their R&D cylinders are easily the most accurate 45 Colt revolvers I own. More accurate than my Colts, Rugers, or clones.
AULT-GM
Member
Saw this many times in the 60's - 70's
I saw the same results many times with very light charges in .38 Special Cases during the 1960's - 70's ...
Here is an Article I found on the subject ...
The Light Load Controversy
People seem to be familiar with light load ruptures, but they are very difficult to reproduce. It lends some to believe it was from a double-charge accidently put into the case, but it does have references going back to the 1881 period of time.
There is some agreement on the following: Very low density loads (meaning the ratio of powder volume to cartridge case volume) of very fast powders under varying environmental conditions can create up to 4X normal chamber pressures and may cause the light load rupture to occur. Ruptured barrels can be symptomatic of too much powder (double charge loads, etc.). Ruptured cylinders and dissappearing backstraps can be sypmptomatic of a light-load rupture.
The use of low density charges with one of the top 10 fastest powders in the world at half the recommended factory charge weight may work in your gun, but it's risky.
It may not work in someone else's gun. Therefore, no one should recommend very light loads, especially of fast burning powders to anyone. Stuck bullets is another matter. With very light loads and powder against the bullet, a very mild shot can stick a bullet in the barrel. The NEXT shot can have disasterous consequences, also leading to the cautions against very light loads of any type, but especially of fast burning powders at the other end of the case from the primer.
There has been an article published in Trails End Magazine on this same subject (see Volume 1, No. 3 Oct/Nov 1995).
I saw the same results many times with very light charges in .38 Special Cases during the 1960's - 70's ...
Here is an Article I found on the subject ...
The Light Load Controversy
People seem to be familiar with light load ruptures, but they are very difficult to reproduce. It lends some to believe it was from a double-charge accidently put into the case, but it does have references going back to the 1881 period of time.
There is some agreement on the following: Very low density loads (meaning the ratio of powder volume to cartridge case volume) of very fast powders under varying environmental conditions can create up to 4X normal chamber pressures and may cause the light load rupture to occur. Ruptured barrels can be symptomatic of too much powder (double charge loads, etc.). Ruptured cylinders and dissappearing backstraps can be sypmptomatic of a light-load rupture.
The use of low density charges with one of the top 10 fastest powders in the world at half the recommended factory charge weight may work in your gun, but it's risky.
It may not work in someone else's gun. Therefore, no one should recommend very light loads, especially of fast burning powders to anyone. Stuck bullets is another matter. With very light loads and powder against the bullet, a very mild shot can stick a bullet in the barrel. The NEXT shot can have disasterous consequences, also leading to the cautions against very light loads of any type, but especially of fast burning powders at the other end of the case from the primer.
There has been an article published in Trails End Magazine on this same subject (see Volume 1, No. 3 Oct/Nov 1995).
Hi, Driftwood,
Just FWIW, Colt ran into much the same problem when converting from percussion to cartridge. They didn't want to make the cylinder much larger (the tooling would have to be modified too much) but wanted to go to .45 vs. the old .44. So they increased cylinder diameter a bit and reduced the rims as much as possible, which is why the .45 Colt has a small rim and sometimes gives extraction problems in rifles, which is why the old timers didn't chamber lever action rifles for .45 Colt.
The trick of slanting the chambers to allow fitting of larger rims also goes back to Colt - that is just what they did when they chambered the SAA for .455 Webley.
Jim
Just FWIW, Colt ran into much the same problem when converting from percussion to cartridge. They didn't want to make the cylinder much larger (the tooling would have to be modified too much) but wanted to go to .45 vs. the old .44. So they increased cylinder diameter a bit and reduced the rims as much as possible, which is why the .45 Colt has a small rim and sometimes gives extraction problems in rifles, which is why the old timers didn't chamber lever action rifles for .45 Colt.
The trick of slanting the chambers to allow fitting of larger rims also goes back to Colt - that is just what they did when they chambered the SAA for .455 Webley.
Jim
That was one of the most popular explanations back in the '70s, but Speer tested it throughly and found no increase in pressure due to powder position. When you're shooting small powder charges in relatively large cases, like 2.7 gr of Bullseye in a .38 Spl, the powder normally lays along the side of the case and almost never covers the flash hole.
As I recall, this research was prompted by Jeff Cooper's article, "Blowing Up With 2.7" in Guns and Ammo magazine.
Funny the stuff you remember .....
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
There is another theory on how a light load could possibly blow up a gun. I am a bit reluctant to state it here because it often gets blasted by those who are positive it cannot happen. But here goes anyway.
In a well balanced load, as a bullet moves down the bore, the 'combustion chamber' behind it lengthens. As the pressure caused by the progressively burning powder continues to increase, the volume that the expanding gasses are attempting to pressurize continues to expand. With the perfect load, the pressure continues to build in a controlled manner until the bullet exits the muzzle, and pressure stays within levels that the firearm can tolerate.
We all know that just a primer alone often has enough power to drive a bullet out of the case and lodge it in the forcing cone. I have seen this happen plenty of times at Cowboy Action matches with inexperienced reloaders who managed to assemble a round with no powder in it.
Most Smokeless powders do not burn consistently until a pressure of about 5000 psi is achieved. Under 5000 psi some powders can burn poorly, exhibiting erratic behavior and varying pressure curves. This situation can be aggravated by small powder charges in very large cases, such as 45 Colt.
The theory is that with an extremely light load, under just the right circumstances, a primer may drive the bullet out of the case before the necessary 5000 psi has been achieved for the powder to burn as it was designed to do. In this situation the powder may not yet be burning in a consistent, controlled manner. If the primer drives the bullet out of the chamber and lodges it in the forcing cone, the bullet is suddenly transformed from being a projectile to being a bore obstruction. At that moment, the combustion chamber becomes fixed in length and the powder that may have been burning erratically suddenly begins burning normally and the critical 5000 psi is quickly achieved. However, the 'combustion chamber' is no longer expanding, it is fixed in length. So the pressure curve may build faster than desired, and with no outlet for the increasing pressure, it may exceed the ability of the firearm to contain it.
No, nobody has yet proved this in a laboratory, but once I read it a few years ago it made a lot of sense to me. It does make a good case for not experimenting with extremely light loads below powder manufacturers' suggested starting loads. It also makes a very good case for putting a firm crimp on light loads, to delay the bullet from moving out of the case until the powder has achieved enough pressure to begin burning progressively.
I am not implying that this was the situation with the Original Poster's loads, I just wanted to state that there is another theory that may explain unexplained blowups in handguns other than an accidental double load, too many bullets, or other situations developing from inattention at the loading bench.
A number of years ago Mike Venturino described an unexplained blowup that he experienced with a vintage Single Action Army. After the gun blew up he disassembled all the ammo from that loading session and did not find any unusual powder charges. While he admitted that the critical round might have somehow gotten an extra powder charge, he joined those who began to suspect that there may be something else going on with unexplained blowups with light loads.
There is another theory on how a light load could possibly blow up a gun. I am a bit reluctant to state it here because it often gets blasted by those who are positive it cannot happen. But here goes anyway.
In a well balanced load, as a bullet moves down the bore, the 'combustion chamber' behind it lengthens. As the pressure caused by the progressively burning powder continues to increase, the volume that the expanding gasses are attempting to pressurize continues to expand. With the perfect load, the pressure continues to build in a controlled manner until the bullet exits the muzzle, and pressure stays within levels that the firearm can tolerate.
We all know that just a primer alone often has enough power to drive a bullet out of the case and lodge it in the forcing cone. I have seen this happen plenty of times at Cowboy Action matches with inexperienced reloaders who managed to assemble a round with no powder in it.
Most Smokeless powders do not burn consistently until a pressure of about 5000 psi is achieved. Under 5000 psi some powders can burn poorly, exhibiting erratic behavior and varying pressure curves. This situation can be aggravated by small powder charges in very large cases, such as 45 Colt.
The theory is that with an extremely light load, under just the right circumstances, a primer may drive the bullet out of the case before the necessary 5000 psi has been achieved for the powder to burn as it was designed to do. In this situation the powder may not yet be burning in a consistent, controlled manner. If the primer drives the bullet out of the chamber and lodges it in the forcing cone, the bullet is suddenly transformed from being a projectile to being a bore obstruction. At that moment, the combustion chamber becomes fixed in length and the powder that may have been burning erratically suddenly begins burning normally and the critical 5000 psi is quickly achieved. However, the 'combustion chamber' is no longer expanding, it is fixed in length. So the pressure curve may build faster than desired, and with no outlet for the increasing pressure, it may exceed the ability of the firearm to contain it.
No, nobody has yet proved this in a laboratory, but once I read it a few years ago it made a lot of sense to me. It does make a good case for not experimenting with extremely light loads below powder manufacturers' suggested starting loads. It also makes a very good case for putting a firm crimp on light loads, to delay the bullet from moving out of the case until the powder has achieved enough pressure to begin burning progressively.
I am not implying that this was the situation with the Original Poster's loads, I just wanted to state that there is another theory that may explain unexplained blowups in handguns other than an accidental double load, too many bullets, or other situations developing from inattention at the loading bench.
A number of years ago Mike Venturino described an unexplained blowup that he experienced with a vintage Single Action Army. After the gun blew up he disassembled all the ammo from that loading session and did not find any unusual powder charges. While he admitted that the critical round might have somehow gotten an extra powder charge, he joined those who began to suspect that there may be something else going on with unexplained blowups with light loads.
AULT-GM
Member
The incidents I referred to concerned loads lighter than 2.5 gn. Bullseye, and as low as 2.0 gn.
MrAcheson
Member
I find this scenario unlikely. A bullet that is pushed into the forcing cone by the primer charge is not a barrel obstruction. It is not fixed. It is still free to move just like any other bullet. With smokeless, the powder isn't going to start burning reliably and quickly until the air space behind the bullet fills up with gas and the chamber pressurizes. So all throwing the bullet into the forcing cone does is increase the size of the combustion chamber even more. It will increase the likelihood of squib because with more volume the poorly burning powder might never properly pressurize the chamber to get the whole powder charge going. But probably not a detonation.
One issue that hasn't been brought up with small charge sizes is broken or deformed grains. All powders are going have broken or deformed grains that burn very differently from whole ones. Typically much faster. Officially, a big reason for the turret explosion in the battleship Iowa was that they used too many broken grains from a partial charge bag.
Ideally these broken grains are evenly distributed among all the rounds, but they really aren't. As the number of grains in a powder charge drops, the variation from charge to charge increases (standard deviation of the sample compared to the population). Which means that small charges are much more likely to have too few or too many of these broken and fast burning grains. Too few is fine. Too many may cause a potentially destructive pressure spike.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Not really. Have you ever had to drive a bullet back out that got lodged in a forcing cone? They can be very stubborn and sometimes need to be really whacked to get them out again. A bullet stuck in the forcing cone has not yet been sized down by the rifling, so it is mechanically held in place, not just held by friction.
The point is, if the bullet stops, and then pressure builds quickly, the bullet may not have time to 'get out of the way' if the pressure starts building rapidly. When a cartridge fires normally, the bullet starts moving from a dead stop as the pressure begins building gradually behind it. Kind of like the analogy of pulling a stalled car with a rope. If you begin gradually and slowly, you can get the car moving. But if you allow some slack in the rope, then suddenly yank on it, you will probably break the rope. Gradually applied pressure usually moves things with less disruption than pressure applied abruptly.
In the scenario I have described, the bullet propelled only by the primer stops in the forcing cone before hardly any pressure has built up from the burning powder. We all know that the way progressive powders burn, the more pressure is in the chamber, the faster they burn, building the pressure even higher. It is almost like a chain reaction.
Once the pressure starts building behind the stuck bullet, it builds up faster than the bullet can get out of the way. So without the bullet moving to ease the pressure, the pressure might build up beyond the bursting strength of the firearm.
It's just a theory, but it makes a lot of sense to me.
millertyme
Member
My condolences.
Driftwood Johnson said:
You are correct. Howell makes the six shot 1858 conversion cylinder for Taylors so you either buy it from Taylors or one of Taylors retail customers but not from Howell directly.
I try to give kudos to those who are correct.
As it was the conversion cylinder that let go (in a big way) I would be contacting Taylor. I thought all conversion cylinders were 4140 treated steel, or at least my Kirst is.
Am surprised the Remmy took that punishment without parting the top strap. was it a Uberti or a Pietta?
Am surprised the Remmy took that punishment without parting the top strap. was it a Uberti or a Pietta?
re: Driftwood Johnson
Your photos on the thin rear chamber walls was interesting.
I have a early first gen BP frame Colt SA (Colt letter states made in 1886) in .44-40 and the rear chamber walls are spooky thin. It is in good mechanical condition and have fired it s few times, but only with light boolits and real BP.
Your photos on the thin rear chamber walls was interesting.
I have a early first gen BP frame Colt SA (Colt letter states made in 1886) in .44-40 and the rear chamber walls are spooky thin. It is in good mechanical condition and have fired it s few times, but only with light boolits and real BP.
arcticap
Member
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andrewstorm
member
A Few fellas know......
Precision loading begins with weighing loading components,those 41 colt vintage weighed rounds were not black powder,in 1897 smokeless powder was used in certain revolvers colt and other manufacturers saw the need for accurate measurements of the new black powder substitute called bulls eye,so in kings mill Ohio, they weighed every cartridge that left the factory and every 41 colt in this box weighs 276 grains............the last day of deer season just before firing off a ruger old army,something told me not to fire?after checking the like new old army I Noticed I couldn't see day light thru the barrel,sure enough a tissue used to clean the bore was packed in the bore half way down the barrel,thank god for small miracles
Precision loading begins with weighing loading components,those 41 colt vintage weighed rounds were not black powder,in 1897 smokeless powder was used in certain revolvers colt and other manufacturers saw the need for accurate measurements of the new black powder substitute called bulls eye,so in kings mill Ohio, they weighed every cartridge that left the factory and every 41 colt in this box weighs 276 grains............the last day of deer season just before firing off a ruger old army,something told me not to fire?after checking the like new old army I Noticed I couldn't see day light thru the barrel,sure enough a tissue used to clean the bore was packed in the bore half way down the barrel
,thank god for small miracles
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MrAcheson
Member
Every bullet has to transit the forcing cone on a revolver. I'm not saying it doesn't take a lot of force to get past it. But at that point in the bullet's trajectory the gun will be operating at or near max chamber pressure, so it will have lots of force. What you're saying is that the bullet is stuck in the forcing cone so hard that the walls of the cylinder will burst before it moves. I don't buy it. The event you're calling a barrel obstruction is something every bullet fired from a revolver has encountered.
Yes we all know that, but you don't seem to understand the implications of it. Why does the pressure build? Why does the powder start to burn faster? Because the propellant gas has already filled the combustion chamber behind the bullet and so the pressure rises as more is generated and none can escape. BP has a near constant burn rate with pressure. Smokeless does not. This why black powder cartridges cannot safely contain airspace and must use fillers if the bullet cannot be seated directly on the powder charge, but smokeless cartridges often contain airspace and none need fillers. With smokeless, it isn't until the pressure builds behind the bullet that the burn rate increases. Because of this behavior there really is no slack on the rope if the bullet moves into the forcing cone before the main powder charge comes up to pressure.
alsaqr
Member
Bingo!!!
Gun writers and others took a phenomenon that happens on very rare occasions with field artillery at low charges and extrapolated it to small arms ammo.
Beauhooligan
Member
temmi wrote:
I'm the OP, and temmi is on the same path I am going down. I'm weighing all my bullets and tossing any that are more than +/- 2 grains off nominal. The ones that are culled go to my lead pots for casting. I am also weighing the cartridge cases and cull any that are also more than +/- 1 grain. I have gone to IMR Trail Boss powder for the large volume cases, as it comes closer to filling the case, making a double charge pretty easy to spot; though the maximum charge for the .45 Colt from IMR's web site:
http://www.imrpowder.com/
is 5.8 grains, a double charge of which which will not over flow a .45 Colt case. I am using the powder check die on my Dillon 650XLs and am not just waiting for the tone to sound; I am watching where the indicator is when the charge is checked, so that I have a visual on the charge, should the powder checker somehow fail. With the Dillon 650XL the bullet is placed in the case by hand. I am using a separate Lee Factory Crimp die at station 5, and keeping a weather eye for any case that does not have a slug in place. If one round has no bullet, it indicates that I have to inspect the round at the bullet seating station. I also use Dillon dies, and pulling the seating die apart and cleaning it before I start a reloading session. Last, but not least, when I have finished loading and inspect to finished rounds, I am weighing them on a RCBS electronic scale and rejecting, and disassembling, any round that is +/- 3 grains. This slows the process, but it's a "pay me now, or pay me later" type of affair. I have shot 300 rounds of .45 Colt loaded in this way through my second 5 1/2" '58 Remington revolvers with Taylor's/Kenny Howell conversion cylinders without a glitch. To be honest, I had a severe flinch when I pulled the trigger on that first round; a pucker factor of about 9.5 on a scale of 10. I came close to maiming or killing myself with my old process, and lost a nice revolver. I have taken to seeing that it never happens again with the passion of someone who has found true religion.
Someone intimated that I think I'm an expert when it comes to loading. I may be stupid, irresponsible or a poor son of a whatever one wants to call me, but I am no expert. I've never pretended to be one. I'm just a reloader with a bit of experience, who had an accident that has changed not only my reloading process, but my life; for which I am grateful.
I'm the OP, and temmi is on the same path I am going down. I'm weighing all my bullets and tossing any that are more than +/- 2 grains off nominal. The ones that are culled go to my lead pots for casting. I am also weighing the cartridge cases and cull any that are also more than +/- 1 grain. I have gone to IMR Trail Boss powder for the large volume cases, as it comes closer to filling the case, making a double charge pretty easy to spot; though the maximum charge for the .45 Colt from IMR's web site:
http://www.imrpowder.com/
is 5.8 grains, a double charge of which which will not over flow a .45 Colt case. I am using the powder check die on my Dillon 650XLs and am not just waiting for the tone to sound; I am watching where the indicator is when the charge is checked, so that I have a visual on the charge, should the powder checker somehow fail. With the Dillon 650XL the bullet is placed in the case by hand. I am using a separate Lee Factory Crimp die at station 5, and keeping a weather eye for any case that does not have a slug in place. If one round has no bullet, it indicates that I have to inspect the round at the bullet seating station. I also use Dillon dies, and pulling the seating die apart and cleaning it before I start a reloading session. Last, but not least, when I have finished loading and inspect to finished rounds, I am weighing them on a RCBS electronic scale and rejecting, and disassembling, any round that is +/- 3 grains. This slows the process, but it's a "pay me now, or pay me later" type of affair. I have shot 300 rounds of .45 Colt loaded in this way through my second 5 1/2" '58 Remington revolvers with Taylor's/Kenny Howell conversion cylinders without a glitch. To be honest, I had a severe flinch when I pulled the trigger on that first round; a pucker factor of about 9.5 on a scale of 10. I came close to maiming or killing myself with my old process, and lost a nice revolver. I have taken to seeing that it never happens again with the passion of someone who has found true religion.
Someone intimated that I think I'm an expert when it comes to loading. I may be stupid, irresponsible or a poor son of a whatever one wants to call me, but I am no expert. I've never pretended to be one. I'm just a reloader with a bit of experience, who had an accident that has changed not only my reloading process, but my life; for which I am grateful.
Frank V
Member
Glad you weren't hurt. I'm not sure what the cause was & I thank you for admitting it to others. Maybe one of us will be saved the same situation.
The one caution I think of is both the gun & cylinder are black powder designs & were meant to be shot with black powder. Sometimes we get away with using smokeless in a BP design. There are a couple of well known authors who say not to use smokeless in a BP gun. The newer replica S&W Schofields are an exception Light loads please, & double check for double charges.
Trailboss powder will almost gurantee no double charge. I've thrown double charges of Trailboss in a .45 Colt case on purpose just to see, & it'll almost run over. It'd be very hard to double charge a case with Trailboss. It's an accurate powder too & I like it very much.
I'm sorry it happened & hope it never does again.
Thanks for sharing with us.
Frank
The one caution I think of is both the gun & cylinder are black powder designs & were meant to be shot with black powder. Sometimes we get away with using smokeless in a BP design. There are a couple of well known authors who say not to use smokeless in a BP gun. The newer replica S&W Schofields are an exception Light loads please, & double check for double charges.
Trailboss powder will almost gurantee no double charge. I've thrown double charges of Trailboss in a .45 Colt case on purpose just to see, & it'll almost run over. It'd be very hard to double charge a case with Trailboss. It's an accurate powder too & I like it very much.
I'm sorry it happened & hope it never does again.
Thanks for sharing with us.
Frank
Frank V said:
I disagree with this conjecture. While a BP revolver in a cap-n-ball configuration should always use either BP or approved BP substitute the same is not true of cartridges fired from a "conversion cylinder". The conversion cylinder is typically made from steel stronger than the cap-n-ball cylinder and the caveat is that only "cowboy loads" be used in the conversion cylinder. Most "cowboy load" cartridges purchased off the shelf use smokeless powder.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
I have scanned the small pamplet that came with one of my R&D 45 Colt conversion cylinders. The specific alloy the cylinder and top plate are made from are listed on it. Also, the use of 45 Colt 'Cowboy Ammunition' is mentioned.
Perhaps I should mention here that I have been involved with Cowboy Shooting for over ten years.
There is no specific SAAMI spec for Cowboy Ammo, but R&D spells out what they recommend be used in their cylinders. Cowboy Ammunition is commonly made by several manufacturers, and it is Smokeless ammo, it is not Black Powder ammo.
Gray Paccelli
Member
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2012
- Messages
- 11
Greetings. I have the Uberti 1858 Remington New Army .44 Caliber Carbine.
I bought a Howell conversion cylinder machined for .45 ACP and it arrived with no load data and an insistence that Back Hills Ammo be used. Well, Black Hills makes no Cowboy .45 ACP loads. So basically the cylinder mfr. and the ammo mfr. at out of synch. I have a Lee TL452-230-2R mould for .452 dia bullets at 230 Grains. I have both; American Pioneer Powder (FFFG) and HodgdonTriple Se7en powder (FFFG). What would be safe and good functioning lading practice for my dandy little carbine? I've shot .454 round balls with 25 Grains of the American Pioneer Powder with impressive results. Thanks in advance. I want to keep my dandy weapon for a long time and lie the idea of loading my own .45 ACP Casings.
I bought a Howell conversion cylinder machined for .45 ACP and it arrived with no load data and an insistence that Back Hills Ammo be used. Well, Black Hills makes no Cowboy .45 ACP loads. So basically the cylinder mfr. and the ammo mfr. at out of synch. I have a Lee TL452-230-2R mould for .452 dia bullets at 230 Grains. I have both; American Pioneer Powder (FFFG) and HodgdonTriple Se7en powder (FFFG). What would be safe and good functioning lading practice for my dandy little carbine? I've shot .454 round balls with 25 Grains of the American Pioneer Powder with impressive results. Thanks in advance. I want to keep my dandy weapon for a long time and lie the idea of loading my own .45 ACP Casings.
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