Disaster - blew up a '58 Remmy conversion

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Beauhooligan

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I had a disaster last night. I wanted to go out and fire one round into my big cottonwood tree to celebrate the New Year. I inserted five rounds into my Taylor's conversion cylinder. left the dog in the house, as she is spooked easily, and aimed at my four foot wide tree. When the pistol went off, it was a detonation instead of a gunshot. It sounded like a M67 fragmentation grenade going off. The result was catastrophic. The top three chambers were gone, and the top strap looks like something from the Hunchback of Notre Dame. The cylinder will not rotate and I can't get the critter apart without a hammer. I'll do that, as I want to take those unfired rounds and knock them apart; find out exactly what the powder charge in them weighs. Here are some photos:

blownup58Remington003.jpg

blownup58Remington002.jpg

blownup58Remington001.jpg

The load was mild, a Bear Creek Supply 225 gn RNFP ahead of 5.3 grains of 700-X, which is the starting load in the Lyman manual #49 for a 230 gn lead bullet, with a max charge of 6.5 grains. Speer's manual #14 gives a minimum charge of 5.3 gns, and a max charge of 6.0 with 700-X. The Hornady 8th edition manual gives a load for a 200 gn lead bullet that is minimum of 5.7 gns and a max of 7.1 gns. I did due diligence on my research, and was very careful in the loading process. I thought a minimum charge with a light bullet was the safe way to go. The only odd thing was that the bullet was intended for .45 ACP, so I changed my Hornady crimp die to a Lee taper crimp die, due to a lack of crimp groove. I loaded these on a Dillon 650 XL progressive machine and powder measure that has never given problems previously, and I use a powder check die to confirm a case that is empty, or one that is overcharged. I was building these low pressure loads for shooting with The Outlaws next Saturday, and had only loaded 19 round so far, so I knocked the remaining ones apart with an impact bullet puller. I could find no problem with the powder charges in any of the remaining cartridges. So, all I can say is the old CAS saw that, "Sometimes cartridges with small volume powder charges in big cases go BOOM". I'm very glad of two things. I'm pleased as punch that I'm okay. I'm also glad that this happened when and where it did, as the shrapnel pinged of the wall of the house, and if this had happened next Saturday on the line, some of my posse partners could have been hurt or worse. I've never in the 43 years I've been reloading had any kind of failure, other than bad primers. This has left me shaken. What a way to welcome 2012. :confused:
 
Very glad no one was injured.
That is one tough frame looks like you owe someone a thanks for quality of both design and safety in this frame.
I dont see any conversion cylinders in my near future.
Sorry for your loss.
T
 
First I'll say; Glad your alright, and sorry for losing a nice looking pistol. I cannot say or guess what went wrong, but want to give you a second thought on another possability, maybe not what happened though. I was reloading on my Dillon 550B and going along nicely when it was time to empty the full tray of loaded cartridges, and found an empty case with powder spilled in the tray also. At first I just thought I had forgot to set a bullet on a charged case, and it just spilled out as it fell into the tray. I couldn't believe I would do something like that as I'm pretty careful about my reloading practices. So I continue on reloading, then it happened again and now I know something is wrong as I was watching carefully that I was putting a bullet on top after the first time. So I started another round of reloading when I finally spotted it, I set a bullet on top of the charged case, pulled the handle and to my supprise the bullet totally disappeared. It wasn't in the case at all! I knew what happened but wanted to prove it so I went and indexted the press and loaded the next case. This time the bullet was seated like it was supposed to be. I stopped and removed that one and pulled it apart, and what I suppected happened, happened there were 2 bullets in that loaded round! WOW! that could have been a KaBooM in the making. The problem ended up being to much bullet lube had built up in the seating die and it stick there and with the next pull it would set both bullets and this time it would let loose. I ended up weighing all my reloaded rounds that day and found the other 2 with double bullets in them. So I suggest when loading cast bullets to clean your seating dies from time to time to prevent this from happening. LM
 
I ended up weighing all my reloaded rounds that day and found the other 2 with double bullets in them. So I suggest when loading cast bullets to clean your seating dies from time to time to prevent this from happening.

Good reason to clean the dies regularly especially if you are using lead bullets with alox or a waxy lube. Both Dillon and Hornady make it easy to pull the die without losing your settings.
 
Small charges in big cases don't just go boom.

Smokeless powder used in reloading is incapable of detonating.

You either had a double charge, or two bullets in the case a LightningMan said.

rc
 
Double projectile? Now that's an interesting and at least for me, new possibility. Thanks for the heads-up Lightning man!
 
"Smokeless powder used in reloading is incapable of detonating."

rcmodel---is that true? I hope it is...but I've never heard that before.
Would you mind giving me and others here a short education on that?

thanks
 
Lightningman - I think you may have solved the mystery. I've heard of a number of similar events over the years, sometimes involving powders that should have been fairly safe, even with a double charge. People have been arguing about detonation ever since.

Personally, I find your explanation easier to believe.
 
Probably should be in the "handloading" forum. Man, I'd cry if my 5.5" Remmy blew like that. It's a shooter. I'm thinkin' of getting a .45ACP conversion, but will probably settle for a couple of spare cylinders because they're cheaper and, hell, I have cartridge guns. I have a fav Blackhawk in .45 Colt.
 
rcmodel---is that true?
Yes, it is true, or I would not have said it.

If smokeless powder were capable of detonating in small quantities, it would be classified as a explosive by the ATF & DOT, just like dynamite, nitroglycerin, C4, blasting caps, etc,
And you or I couldn't buy it. And the UPS man couldn't deliver it.

For an explosive to detonate, it must be capable of supporting a supersonic shock wave propagating directly in front of the flame front

Smokeless powder burns really fast, but it doesn't explode, or detonate, unless you have a rail-car full of it packed dense enough to support the shock wave.

There is zero chance of that happening in a loaded cartridge, 1 lb can, or 8 lb keg.
That is why it is packed that way, sold that way, and classed as a flammable, not an explosive.

rc
 
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The detonation myth has been out there for a long time. Powder companies have conducted tests to see if they could replicate it in the lab, so far, no dice. So as a result they all continue to publish data for small volume charges of fast powder in a large case. More likely is a double charge or even the double bullet. It's mechanically possible and a good explanation, not only that, it can be replicated in the lab, with consistency.
 
Double projectile? Now that's an interesting and at least for me, new possibility. Thanks for the heads-up Lightning man!

I have to second that. I wouldn't have thought of two bullets in a cartridge case in a hundred years.

Beauhooligan: I hope you'll keep your wrecked gun and show it to people as a warning. Shortly after I started loading my own ammunition, I met a guy with nine and a half fingers at a range. He showed me his hand, showed me how hard it was to pull the trigger with his second rather than index finger, and explained he'd loaded a round with a double charge of a fast-burning powder. I'd never been careless; after seeing what could happen as a result of carelessness, however, I've always been very careful while rolling rounds. Seeing is believing.
 
rc--thank you!
And I will consider that the final word on this matter.

And it sounds like paying a HazMat charge on our powders is a rip off eh?
 
Well, probably, maybe.

But you have to admit, if the UPS semi-truck gets a hot brake and catches on fire on I-70?

It would be way better to have 50 pounds of Victoria's Secret scanty panties then 50 pounds of smokeless powder in the truck.

rc
 
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This isn't the first time I've seen this happen, as a good friend of mine and I were out shooting with our cowboy sixguns when he couldn't load one of his 44-40 rounds in his Colt SAA. Try as he may, it wasn't going to go in, later when he got home, pulled the round apart, and there it was, 2 bullets in the same case. In this case he was extremely lucky, has he could have injured himself or me besides losing a valuble pistol to boot. He later related to about finding an empty case with spilled powder in the ammo tray. I filed that away in my memory, and lucky I did. LM
 
I'm glad nobody was hurt, you're lucky your hand is still intact.

But I'm also glad this situation has been reported here so others can learn from it.

Would double-seated bullets have caused the powder to become overly compressed causing too high of a pressure spike?
 
No.

But a charge that is safe pushing a single 230 grain bullet becomes very unsafe when ask to push a 460 grain bullet column with twice the weight, length, and bore friction.

Suppose you hit a light socker ball with your fist as hard as you can.
Now hit a heavy bowling ball with your fist as hard as you can.

Feel the differance?

You also would have the nose of the rear bullet wedging into the base of the front bullet before it can get out of the way.
That's probably enough by itself to split the cylinder walls and release the high pressure gas to wreck the gun.

rc
 
rcmodel, thats a good analogy that I can relate to. I did nearly break my foot one time when I went to kick a ball that wasn't. Yeah it was round like a ball and made of rubber like a ball, but it was a weighted ball used for exersizing. Think medicine ball. Oh that hurt! LM
 
I've been shooting 2.3 grains B'eye behind a 105 Lee SWC as a light small game load for my Rossi M92 carbine in .357 for a long time, load in .38 brass. I've shot thousands of rounds with no problems. Bulleye is about as dense as powder gets and I could triple charge that load without mechanical failures.
 
If indeed it proves to be 2 bullets in the cartridge....that makes a strong case for safety being on the side of non-progressive presses.
I would think it would be very unlikely to do that on a single stage press.
 
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