District Attorney on New York's Long Island bans prosecutors from owning guns

[usmarine0352_2005]

Surprised no one has challenged this or taken it to court yet.






http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/2...s-prosecutors-from-owning-guns/?intcmp=hplnws

District Attorney on New York's Long Island bans prosecutors from owning guns

Published September 29, 2015

The district attorney of one New York county is prohibiting prosecutors from owning a handgun -- a rule some law experts claim is unconstitutional. The Nassau County District Attorney's Office on New York's Long Island bars its prosecutors from possessing a handgun, even at home, unless a special exception is made by the Acting District Attorney, Madeline Singas, according to an application for employment.

"[A]ssistant district attorneys are not permitted to apply for a handgun permit nor own or possess a handgun while employed by the Nassau County District Attorney. Any exception to this policy must be in writing and approved by the District Attorney," the application states.

The Nassau County District Attorney's Office did not return requests for comment when contacted Monday. In a statement provided to Volokh, the office said, "Our practice of asking prosecutors to not possess handguns is to ensure the safety and comfort of staff, victims, and witnesses, and is consistent with other district attorney’s offices in the New York City metropolitan area."

Volokh, who first criticized the rule in a Sept. 21 blogpost for Washington Post, explained that the government, acting as employer, has the right to restrict certain employee behaviors, including "off-duty exercise of constitutional rights."

 

[Spats McGee]

Yeah, when did "setting up my employer to be sued by a class of plaintiffs consisting solely of licensed attorneys" get to be a good idea?

 

[jerkface11]

In a statement provided to Volokh, the office said, "Our practice of asking prosecutors to not possess handguns is to ensure the safety and comfort of staff, victims, and witnesses, and is consistent with other district attorney’s offices in the New York City metropolitan area."

In other words Cuomo told them to.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Volokh is Eugene Volokh, law professor and staunch libertarian whose writings on the Second Amendment were cited by the US Supreme Court in favor of an individual right to keep and bear arms for self defense.

Eugene Volokh, a professor at UCLA School of Law, said Monday the policy violates an individual's Second Amendment rights as well as an important New York state statute.
"I'm not arguing they should have extra rights beyond what everyone else has; I'm arguing they should have the same rights."
- Eugene Volokh, UCLA School of Law professor

According to Volokh, even if the DA could ban prosecutors from being armed while at work under her jurisdiction, the DA does not have authority under New York law when she bans her prosecutors from owning guns at their homes.

 

[Old Fuff]

Since for all practical purposes they prohibit everybody else from having handguns I see no reason they shouldn't have to live under the same rules.

Like others, if they have strong objections they can either move, or as futile as it might be, go to court and defend their rights.

 

[Spats McGee]

Since for all practical purposes they prohibit everybody else from having handguns I see no reason they shouldn't have to live under the same rules.

Like others, if they have strong objections they can either move, or as futile as it might be, go to court and defend their rights.

I'm not sure who the "they" is that you say prohibit everyone else, but I'm pretty sure that folks applying for jobs as prosecutors aren't assigned the task of granting or denying handgun permits.

I'll also say that this is a little different. Even if other people have trouble getting a handgun permit, the application packet states that an applicant for this job cannot even apply for a permit, which means they can't have guns at home, either. And it also asks if the applicant has ever had a "license to possess a firearm in [NY] or any other state."

• What business is it if the Nassau County prosecutor's office whether I've ever had a handgun license in another state?
• What possible justification could they have for this policy?
• What if I'm from a state where no license is required? (I notice that the packet does NOT ask "Have you ever illegally possessed a handgun?" I find that particularly curious.)
• Does my CHCL count, or is it simply a license to conceal?
• Does my CHCL act as a disqualifier from consideration?

I understand that I might give up some rights (like some political activity) in certain jobs. This one, though, hasn't been tested in the courts, AFAIK.

 

[Midwest]

This this so over the top...even for New York.
.

 

[dh1633pm]

If your DA's were as corrupt as some of those from the big cities, you wouldn't want them to have guns either. I remember after the hurricane my friend was activated (ANG) and sent to Queens. He had to guard a city block with a flash light. What was he to do, hold the light for a looter? And you thought a DA would be allowed to have a firearm? My state makes no sense.

 

[Jim K]

Note the neat "double speak."

1) "... are not permitted to apply for a handgun permit nor own or possess a handgun..."

2) "...asking prosecutors to not possess handguns..."

There is nothing "asking" about "not permitted." The latter makes it clear that the policy is mandatory and presumably will/can be enforced by dismissal and/or fines and imprisonment.

More amazing is the thinking behind the ban - proscuting attorneys in New York are presumed to be murderous lunatics, so insane that they cannot be entrusted with personal firearms lest they pull guns in court and slaughter judges, jurors and defense attorneys. Some statement by the State of New York about its own employees!

Jim

 

[Sol]

Good.

We wouldn't want a conflict of interest to occur when the blue collar schmuck gets denied a permit to own, let alone carry, versus a publicly employed prosecutor of whom could probably get the process expidited in their favor.

Gotta keep the playing field level.

I'm with Old Fuff on this one.

 

[Jim K]

I doubt that the idea of slavery would be more appealing to the slaves if more people were enslaved. We should be working to expand civil rights, not approve their further restriction.

Jim

 

[oneounceload]

Surprised no one has challenged this or taken it to court yet.

Those folks like their highly-paid gov't jobs and don't want to risk them.

 

[joem1945]

If they don't like the law, campaign to change it. What is good for the common man should be good for the elite also.

 

[Old Fuff]

I'm not sure who the "they" is that you say prohibit everyone else,

It should be obvious that "they" consist of the various New York City and related local governments that enforce statutes that for all practical purposes restrict legal handgun ownership to a favored few.

If ordinary but law abiding residents can't have handguns, why shouldn't Deputy Prosecutors and other government officials be required to meet the same standards?

 

[Spats McGee]

I'm not sure who the "they" is that you say prohibit everyone else,

It should be obvious that "they" consist of the various New York City and related local governments that enforce statutes that for all practical purposes restrict legal handgun ownership to a favored few.

Well, it wasn't, at least not to me. I'm curious, though: Exactly what role do you think deputy prosecuting attorneys play in "restricting legal handgun ownership?" Sure, they may prosecute handgun crimes, including unlawful possession, but that would be "restricting illegal handgun ownership." I've never seen a situation in which a DPA was the one who granted or denied a permit, nor one where a DPA was involved in drafting legislation to restrict handgun ownership.

If ordinary but law abiding residents can't have handguns, why shouldn't Deputy Prosecutors and other government officials be required to meet the same standards?

I don't disagree with you on this, believe it or not. My point here is that the DPAs are NOT being required to "meet the same standards." They're being held to an even more restrictive standard than most, in that they are not allowed to even apply for a handgun permit to keep a handgun in the home if they want to keep the job.

 

[Old Fuff]

Well, it wasn't, at least not to me. I'm curious, though: Exactly what role do you think deputy prosecuting attorneys play in "restricting legal handgun ownership?" Sure, they may prosecute handgun crimes, including unlawful possession, but that would be "restricting illegal handgun ownership." I've never seen a situation in which a DPA was the one who granted or denied a permit, nor one where a DPA was involved in drafting legislation to restrict handgun ownership.

Somehow I'm not coming across very well.

Deputy Prosecutors as well as other members of NYC's government - high & low, with the possible exception of some in the Mayor's Office and City Council are not involved in creating or enforcing gun control laws. However it is an open secret that those in high places who have the right connections can easily get the necessary permits and licenses. What I am trying to point out is that Prosecutors are not a privileged class who should be exempted from the statutes and regulations that others required to adhere to.

 

[Spats McGee]

Deputy Prosecutors as well as other members of NYC's government - high & low, with the possible exception of some in the Mayor's Office and City Council are not involved in creating or enforcing gun control laws.

Fair enough.

However it is an open secret that those in high places who have the right connections can easily get the necessary permits and licenses.

Of that, I have no doubt. What I do doubt is that "DPA applicant" qualifies as one of "those in high places." A DPA position in Nassau County NY is $52k. That's a "fresh out of law school" salary, even in Arkansas. If a DPA applicant has the right connections to get the necessary permits and licenses easily, it has nothing to do with being a DPA applicant.

What I am trying to point out is that Prosecutors are not a privileged class who should be exempted from the statutes and regulations that others required to adhere to.

This isn't a statute or regulation, though. We're talking about the policy of the Nassau County Prosecuting Attorney's Office. My objection would be the same if the policy came out of the Nassau County Waste Management Agency (or whatever it's actually called). The office has no business dictating that an applicant has to waive his or her right to keep a firearm in the home in order to be considered for employment.

I would also add that prosecutors are in a slightly different position than the general public. The general public doesn't have to make a public record of telling a judge that he thinks a given thug should have to stay in jail pending trial. A more dangerous job than some, less dangerous than others, to be sure.

 

[lemaymiami]

Not surprised to hear this coming from a place I'd just as soon avoid.... That said, Old Fuff is right on the money with his description of how things work in such places -where the priveledged few can get permits/access to things that ordinary folks are prohibited from...

Orwell, when he wrote "some are more equal than others" in the book Animal Farm gave us a pretty good idea of how things go - and that was almost 70 years ago... Yes, prosecutors might have very real reason to need a firearm - but if everyone else is prohibited then I'm going to have small sympathy for them. Folks generally get the government they deserve.....

 

[steve4102]

Apparently the DA has changed her mind.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...n-prosecutors-owning-and-possessing-handguns/

 

[Spats McGee]

Very interesting, indeed. The new policy looks like an improvement. The new policy is still pretty stupid, IMHO, and very far from perfect, but an improvement.

I've taken the following from the source and added some emphasis.

This policy was established to absolutely avoid the dangers posed by armed, ununiformed lawyers working in charged situations like crime scenes, with other armed law enforcement, without proper firearms training, to prevent friendly fire tragedies like those that have occurred in recent years in Nassau County and neighboring jurisdictions. Including

In 2006, off-duty NYPD Officer Eric Hernandez was shot and killed by an on-duty officer after attempting to apprehend suspects who had attacked him.

Cop-on-cop shooting #1.

On January 25, 2008, off-duty Mt. Vernon, New York, Police Department Officer Christopher Ridley was shot and killed by officers from another department while Ridley was holding a suspect.

Cop-on-cop shooting #2.

On May 28, 2009, off-duty New York City Police Department (NYPD) Officer Omar Edwards was shot and killed by another officer as Edwards was in foot pursuit of a suspect who had broken into Edwards’s car.

Cop-on-cop shooting #3.

In 2009, Governor David A. Paterson established the Task Force on Police on Police Shootings, which recommended, among other things additional training and protocols for police officers to prevent future friendly fire tragedies.

Their cops keep shooting each other and the Task Force recommends additional training . . . Well, that does seem like a good idea. :banghead:

Even though the recommendations of the Task Force were well received, additional friendly fire tragedies followed in Nassau County, specifically:

On March 12, 2011, plainclothes Nassau County Police Officer Geoffrey Breitkopf was killed by an MTA Police officer at an active crime scene in Massapequa Park.

Cop-on-cop shooting #4.

On December 31, 2011, off-duty ATF Special Agent John Capano was killed in a friendly-fire incident involving a retired Nassau County Police Department Lieutenant and off-duty NYPD Officer during a pharmacy robbery.

Cop-on-cop shooting #5.

So, ummm . . . let me see if I get the reasoning behind this right: In 2006, the Chief DA in Nassau County decided to bar the lawyers from owning handguns, because the cops kept shooting each other. . . .

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The application document posted on line:

https://www.nassaucountyny.gov/DocumentCenter/View/10473

is no longer on the Nassau County NY Document Center web page.

[snark]This is all the fault of Fox News and the NRA and the Volokh Conspiracy, undermining common sense, reasonable gun laws aimed at curbing gun violence.[/snark]

US Supreme Court in D.C. v Heller 2008:
“It is no answer to say, that it is permissible to ban the possession of handguns so long as the possession of other firearms (i.e., long guns) is allowed.”

So banning ownership of handguns, even if rifles and shotguns remain legal for Assistant District Attorneys (ADAs) to own and possess at home, is unconstitutional. And apparently the ban on possession by ADAs has been pulled back.




Google:
Nassau Count Assistant District Attorney Application Information & Instruction Form

It is still at http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/DocumentCenter/View/900
ADA applicant 2013_201305021534140278.pdf

Assistant District Attorney Application Information & Instruction Form
Gun Ownership
“I understand that assistant district attorneys are not permitted to apply for a handgun permit nor own or possess a handgun while employed by the Nassau County District Attorney. Any exception to this policy must be in writing and approved by the District Attorney.”
Signature: ____________________________ Date: ____________
Name:_________________________________

 

[Carl N. Brown]

APPLICANT QUESTIONNAIRE

Answer Yes or No to the following questions:

1. Have you ever used, sold or given away any illegal drugs?
2. Are you, or have you ever been, delinquent with respect to the filing of federal or state income tax returns?
3. Have you ever had a license to possess a firearm in this state or any other state?
4. Have you ever gambled illegally?
5. Have you ever been terminated from any employment?
6. Have you ever been convicted of a criminal offense?
7. have you been convicted of any traffic violations?
8. Has any state ever suspended or revoked your driver's license?
9. Have you ever declared bankruptcy?

If your answer to any of these questions is yes, please set forth the question number and an explanation:

The Nassau County NY District Attorney, a prepresentative of New York State officialdom who have been the leaders of the drumbeat for national gun control since the 1920s, equates having a license to possess a firearm to: trafficking illegal drugs, tax cheating, illegal gambling, getting fired from a job, criminal conviction, traffic violations, or being a bankrupt. A person of compromised, tainted character.

Owning a gun makes you a suspect. That matches what I have read from New York based opinion leaders since the 1960s onward, and I suppose if you research New York based gun control opinion sources before the 1960s, it is about the summation of their attitude toward gun owners from the beginning. What is reasonable gun control to people with that base attitude against gun owners?

====================================================

Looking over the "friendly fire" shooting by Nassau County cops, I am reminded of "A Northerner's Fear and Loathing in Kingsport" a 2000 guest op-ed by a New York magazine editor who stayed at our convention center on business the same weekend as the gunshow.

Editor of Harper's Magazine: "I live in one of the most violent cities in America -- New York -- where children carry guns and use them to redress frivolous slights, while the police are among the most trigger-happy in the nation."*

If our county deputies or city police are involved in shooting incidents period, the state bureau of investigation does a shooting review and presentation to the grand jury. We just don't have the kind of trigger-happy-cop-magazine-dumps-over-nothing with reflexive-sympathic-fire-joining-in that are apparently accepted as standard police procedure in New York or California.

The problem in Nassau County is not Assistant District Attorneys with licenses to possess firearms; it is poor police training and discipline and New York attitude toward guns in non-uniformed hands, shoot first then ask questions.



_______________________
* Kingsport (pop. 50,000) had gone three years with no murders 1997-1999. Sullivan County (pop. 150,000) had no murders in 1999. Then in 2000 we had a knifing. The New York pundit's answer to murder in NYC is take handguns from Tennessee hillbillies.
John R. MacArthur, "My compromise in the gun debate", The Providence Journal, July 5, 2000, http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-63162862.html

 

[gbran]

So, this was a political decision that will likely have a legal answer.

 

[Speedo66]

Don't understand what all this talk about NYC has to do with this thread. Nassau County is not NYC, and has nothing to do with it. Completely different political climate in addition, much more conservative than NYC.

I would add that the fact that the Nassau DA publicly rescinded her directive about no handgun possession may have nothing to do with the realities in the office. I think applying for a permit will diminish your chances for continued employment or promotion. ADA's serve at the pleasure of the DA, they have no union or job security. It's a lower level political job, like just about every public service job in Nassau Co. You needed to contribute to the party in power just to get your kid a summer job.

Taxes in Nassau are ridiculous, and there have been scores of scandals involving misappropriation of public funds. It's a political cesspool.

BY the way, permits are approved by judges, ADA's have nothing to do with the permit process. Shocking that once again lots of folks here are acting butt hurt about public employees allegedly having more rights than them, false though it may be.

 

[JWH321]

In my old job I did business with some of those folks. I can't imagine that any of them ever touched a firearm. They all got together to get some publicity. Nothing changed, and they have come up with a way to exclude new applicants who do not share their political philosophy.