Distrubing Police State Incident in Virginia

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On all media outlets now...

I caught Fox ( the blonde guy on at the 5 o'clock hour ) New channel EXCORIATING Unfairtax county for this, and he's supposed to follow up on the 1-8-03 episode. I've seen it in all the local papers, all local broadcasts, internet venues, radio shows... As Bugs would say, "What a Maroon"...

Unfairtax County is known for displaying that they have more budget money than sense, but this little fiasco has been a P.R. catastrophe. Good. There certainly are much more important things for a County to undertake - particularly one that is financially in the red - than this.
 
hops,

The media here report the fine can go as high as $250, but is typically around $40 for a first offense.

The funny papers suggest the interpretation is that a pub is just that - public. But note, they take the "suspects" outside before starting any testing - they're sure in public then. No way do I cooperate with this nonsense.



:fire:
 
washingtonpost.com

Bar Raids Irritate Owners, Drinkers
Fairfax Police Defend Sobriety Testing

By Carol Morello
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 8, 2003; Page B01


As the designated driver in her dinner party, Pat Habib was careful to consume no more than one alcoholic drink and follow it up with two sodas.

So she was shocked when a police officer singled her out of the crowd at Jimmy's Old Town Tavern in Herndon and asked her to step outside to prove her sobriety. After she ran through the alphabet without pause, the Fairfax County police officer let her go and explained police had received a complaint about an unruly blond woman matching her description. Then she watched as police tested other women looking nothing like her.

"I could see it if they wanted to prevent you from getting into a car, but they didn't even ask me if I was driving," Habib said.

Habib was among restaurant and bar patrons swept up last month in a joint operation of the Fairfax County police and the Virginia Department of Alcohol Beverage Control. During the holiday period, undercover agents went to 20 bars in Reston and Herndon looking for examples of bartenders "overserving" customers. Police ultimately raided three bars and arrested nine patrons who failed sobriety tests. They were charged with public drunkenness and spent the night in jail.

Police consider the operation a success and said they would consider doing it again. Lt. Tor Bennett, assistant commander of the Reston District station, described it as a "low-key" operation designed to stop drunks before they got behind the wheel.

"We're not talking about someone who was enjoying a cocktail or two and enjoying a nice evening out," Bennett said, noting that the nine men arrested had blood-alcohol levels ranging from 0.14 to 0.22. "They drew attention to themselves by their actions."

But civil libertarians, restaurateurs and many of their customers who were either questioned or arrested have decried the police tactic. They said many people who were drinking responsibly and causing no commotion now have the Class 4 misdemeanor of public intoxication on their record, and many more potential customers were scared away for good out of fear that a drink or two could get them arrested.

"It does smack of a pending police state if law enforcement is going into establishments to monitor behavior," said Lynne Breaux, executive director of the Metropolitan Washington Restaurant Association. "At the same time, we strongly oppose any combination of drinking and driving."

Under Virginia law, a restaurant or bar is a public place, and public intoxication is a low-level misdemeanor punishable by a night in jail and up to a $250 fine.

Kent Willis of the Virginia branch of the American Civil Liberties Union said the law does not specify what level of blood alcohol constitutes public drunkenness. The level for drunken driving is 0.08.

Police said the holiday raids, first reported in the Reston Times, were born of a community policing goal of discouraging crime before it occurs. Bennett said police had been called repeatedly to the three bars in response to fights and disorderly conduct. Undercover agents found no problems in 17 other bars they visited before Christmas, he said. And four of the men arrested were on their way to their cars when police stopped them, he said.

"We're not talking about overzealousness here," Bennett said, adding that uniformed police officers who made the arrests were accompanied by members of the police bicycle patrol clad in nylon pants and polo shirts.

But bartenders and patrons saw it differently.

At Ned DeVine's restaurant in Reston, owner Graham Davies said seven or eight police officers "came bursting into the place."

"If they decided you had too much to drink, you were targeted," Davies said, acknowledging that he believed the three customers who were arrested at his tavern probably had too much to drink.

"The police are within their rights. I can't disagree with what they want to do, which is save lives. But I disagree with the way they did it."

At Champps in Reston, general manager Kevin O'Hare described police as "antagonistic." He said they "pulled" people from their chairs who were making no commotion. "They're always welcome to come in anytime," he said of police. "It's not an issue when they talk to our guests. But when they actually pull people out of their seats, it is an issue. When it's borderline harassment, it's an issue."

One man who was arrested during one of the police raids acknowledged having several drinks during the course of the afternoon, but said he was not driving or acting unruly as he sat at a table with several work colleagues. He had just finished singing "Jingle Bell Rock" on the karaoke machine when an officer asked him to step outside. He failed a breath test and was taken in a van to jail.

"I've lived my life with tremendous respect for the rule of law," said the man, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he is contesting the charges.

Now his respect is tarnished.

"You could be anybody, anywhere, and they can take you out and throw you in jail," he said. ". . .I didn't do anything other than to be in the wrong place at the wrong time."

Katherine K. Hanley (D), chairman of the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors, said the operation was a tool to reduce drunken driving and would be evaluated before it is repeated.



© 2003 The Washington Post Company
 
Preacherman,

BTW, the "designated decoy" is an urban legend, apparently.

Unless it's happened to police in New York City, Harrisburg, York, and State College, PA, Washington, DC, Richmond, Fairfax, and Virginia Beach, Virgina, among others where it's supposed to have occurred on a friend's uncle's wife's brother's sister's minister's boss' son's authority...
 
Couldn't have been him, Mike, he was in the tub full of ice, looking for his kidneys and reading the "Welcome to the world of AIDS" written on the mirror in lipstick... :cool:

I am glad to see that this is being played as a special holiday event rather than an ongoing policy. Hopefully that's a spin meant to mask some closed-door @$$-chewing that will put a stop to this JBT nonsense.

-0-
 
Thanks for the info, Mr. James. Even at 40 dollars a pop, that can run up to real money if at the time of test you are .08 blood alcohol level, yet not a danger to anyone.

Gives probable cause and interesting twist. You're in a pub so you may/must be drunk. Please follow us outside so that we figure out the may or must.

Scary.........
 
a general manager from a Fairfax restaurant called into the "Ron & Fez Show" tonight.

He said the police had undercover informants with cell phones calling in reports of drunken behaviour before the police came in dressed in black "SWAT" outfits.
 
You're right, Coronach, same topic here by Waitone -- sorry.

And since I'm here, I remembered another example of the incipient police state, although this one is from England, the land of Magna Carta and all that.

Plain clothes police now eat in minority-owned restaurants, listening for racist or other anti-minority remarks by patrons and arrest!! those who make them and haul them in for charges!!!

Saw this in Reason Magazine some time back

Where does it end?

Matis
 
OK, folks! Hot from the Fairfax County Police!

Their "official" response to this!

Warning, there's a LOAD of BULL :cuss: masquerading as community policing here.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject: Col. Manger's response to bar arrests
Importance: High

The following was sent out to citizens who sent e-mails to the Chief concerning the bar arrests in
Reston:

Dear Sir/Mam:

I have received your correspondence depicting your concerns about recent alcohol ordinance
enforcement by my agency in the Herndon/Reston area. The main purpose for enforcing alcohol-
related laws in our community is to save lives. Unfortunately, during the last twenty years 8,346
Virginians lost their lives because of drinking and driving. During 2002, 62 people were killed in
traffic crashes in Fairfax County and it is disturbing to note that 25% of these crashes were
related to alcohol use. The cost in human lives, pain, suffering, medical and property damage is
staggering.

As a matter of legal obligation, law enforcement agencies are required to enforce laws related to
alcohol use. The Fairfax County Police Department does not wish to stand by and treat the
symptoms of alcohol use through enforcement after an alcohol-related crash or death has
occurred. Rather, we have proactively partnered with the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control
and other regional law enforcement agencies to target the root causes of alcohol related deaths.
This is accomplished by enforcing the laws related to intoxication in public places, illegal
purchasing of alcohol by underage persons, failure of merchants to adhere to legal requirements
of the service of alcoholic beverages, and other crimes associated with alcohol consumption in
public places.

The Fairfax County Police Department did not arbitrarily select alcohol establishments in the
Herndon and Reston areas. The sites were selected based upon statistical data, calls for service
related to alcohol violations, arrest data related to alcohol incidents (i.e., Driving While
Intoxicated, Drunk in Public, assaults, etc.), crash data, and other reliable information regarding
alcohol violations in and around the establishments targeted. The enforcement of such laws is to
clearly send a message to the community that we will not tolerate illegal use of alcohol, which is
a major factor in creating deaths on our roadways and decreasing the quality of life in our
neighborhoods.

During the 3 1/2 week period from December 8, 2002 through January 3, 2003 a total of 19
establishments were observed by police officers, 16 of those establishments were found to be in
compliance with no violations observed and no police action taken. There were three locations
where violations were observed which resulted in a total of 12 arrests. Nine of those arrests were
for persons who were drunk in public. Almost half of those arrested for drunk in public were
arrested in their vehicles or as they approached their vehicles. The lowest Blood Alcohol level
detected was .14, which is almost twice that of the legal limit. The remaining three arrests were
for drug related charges and Obstruction of Justice.

Lastly, our enforcement efforts have an educational component. The police department will be
meeting with the managers and owners of all of the establishments where enforcement efforts
took place. These meetings will be utilized to educate owners and managers about alcohol-
related laws to prevent future violations of those laws.

During the 2002-2003 Holiday season, 5 people were killed on the roadways of Fairfax County.
Of those crashes, 60% were alcohol related. During this same period in the Reston and Herndon
areas, I am happy to report that no citizen was killed
because of an alcohol related crash. I cannot statistically prove that no persons were harmed in
the Reston and Herndon areas as a direct result of our efforts. However, I can say that the men
and women of the Fairfax County Police Department aggressively worked to ensure the safety of
all our citizens by conducting alcohol enforcement in all our communities to include the Reston
and Herndon areas.

I am sorry you feel that an
"
invasion
"
of privately owned local establishments that serve alcohol has taken place in your community.
By no means did the Fairfax County Police Department
"
invade
"
such establishments. As outlined above, as obligated by law, and based upon prior statistical
history, we conducted enforcement of alcohol laws at specific locations that served alcohol.
Undercover Officers observed violations of alcohol laws and then advised uniformed personnel
of the violations. Once a violation was established, uniformed personnel would confront the
person(s) who committed the infraction. It is also well documented that many officers are
seriously injured and killed in establishments that serve alcohol. Therefore, only the appropriate
amount of personnel was assigned to assist in such operations to ensure the safety of the officers
and the citizens frequenting the establishments.

The recent media article explaining police activity at alcohol serving establishments in the
Reston and Herndon communities is not an accurate description of our actions. Each enforcement
campaign was conducted in an organized fashion in accordance with the law, and carried out
with respect for the owners and patrons of the establishments. I invite you to take advantage of
our ride a long program and see first hand your police officers carry out their duties in the Reston
and Herndon areas. I can assure you that spending several hours riding with a Fairfax County
Officer will be a positive experience that will demonstrate to you that your community is
provided essential law enforcement services by oneof the finest police agencies in the United
States.

If you would like additional information and arrange for a ride a long, please do not hesitate to
contact the Commander of the Reston District Station, Captain Michael Vencak. Captain Vencak
can be reached at 703-478-0904. Additionally, more specific information about alcohol law
enforcement is available at the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control's website

http://www.abc.state.va.us

Sincerely,
J. Thomas Manger, Colonel
Chief of Police

Erin F. Schaible, Lieutenant
Fairfax County Police Department
Community Policing Division
Work- (703) 246-4764
FAX- (703) 385-3464

[email protected]
 
Am I missing something here?
It would seem that a bar patron would normally be expected to be drinking. If he isn't getting rowdy, then he is only a danger to his own liver.
If he is intending to drive, that's another matter, but shouldn't be a crime unless he DOES drive.
I have seen folks dumb enough to get totally smashed, yet wise enogh to call someone else to drive them home.
 
*pax tiptoes quietly into the room, considers for a moment, and then tosses some juicy flame bait into the room to see what will happen*


The police weren't doing anything wrong. They were enforcing the law as it is written, and should not at all be blamed for it.


*pax tiptoes quietly back out the door, wondering if anyone will take the bait*
 
... nibble, nibble, not bad, Pax, but's what's this sharp hook...??

I made this point in two previous posts. Hard to blame the police for enforcing laws that we allow the politicians to make..

On the other hand, enforcing bad laws does taint the police. They've sure taken enthusiastically to civil asset forfeiture laws, haven't they? The do like to confiscate "guilty" cash, cars, real estate, etc., since THEY themselves (their departments) get to keep most of the loot -- they do like to do that, don't they?

Matis
 
Nazi thugs raiding bars

Somebody should gather all the information that can be found on the Nazi thugs who are raiding bars and post this info on the web so all can be aware of who they are. Let the world know exactly who is behind this crap and who the people are who participate in the raids. The old Nuremberg Defence of "only doing my job" is not valid here.

If we the people do not band together to end this kind of behavior our kids and grand kids are doomed to one hell of a future watering the tree of liberty.

I would like to see liberty re-established by peaceful means. But I want to see it re-established!
 
"The police weren't doing anything wrong. They were enforcing the law as it is written, and should not at all be blamed for it."

Questionable, Pax.

There's apparently no standard in Virginia that defines "public intoxication." The police are apparently using the legal limit for driving under the influence as the arbiter. Under Commonwealth law, that may well be an improper application of the statutes.

Secondly, we then have seriously differing stories about what the police are trying to do. If they're attempting to crack down on rowdiness in the bars, that's one thing, but it would appear to be that the police, judging by the statement that I posted, are saying that this is an issue designed to stop drinking and driving.

If they're leaving a bar full of patrons who continue to drink after they leave, have the police really done anything? Or have they left a bar full of potential DUIs waiting to take to the road?

If you're going to attempt to crack down on DUI, you don't test patrons while they're in the bar. You test them as they leave. Otherwise you've done absolutely nothing to further your stated purpose.

I've got some more information to post on this issue, from police. It's also very interesting.

This also isn't over yet. I'm hearing through the grapevine that attorneys have been retained by at least 2 of the people who were charged, who will contest the application of the statutes that I noted above.
 
Okay. If the Police were just enforcing the Law...How come they never enforced it before? Were they ignoring their responsibilities previously? Why?

Well they should be taken to task for not doing their jobs. Right?

Bad.
Bad.
Bad.
Police.

No milk and cookies before bed tonight.

John
 
I wonder if they did a raid like this at the police Christmas party ? Or at the local cop bar ? Oh wait, how silly of me, they our superiors and we, lowly peons.

The amount of the fine is not the point. The fact that you now have a documented case of a substance abuse problem is.

" made this point in two previous posts. Hard to blame the police for enforcing laws that we allow the politicians to make.. "

I keep reading this same thing thing in post after post after post but you know what, this defense failed miserably at the trials in Nuremberg.
 
I have seen them also Mike. In fact I have been with them. Some of the younger guys I work with love to hang out with cops because they know they can't get busted.
 
I have no problem with police setting up sting operations to catch drunk drivers after they have actually entered their car and are piloting out of the parking lot. In fact, I encourage it. But arresting patrons who are simply drinking, without becoming a public nuisance, crosses the line BIG TIME. If Va. is like most states, a person can exceed the DUI limit with only two drlinks in a one hour period. How many of the patrons do not exceed that limit? Not many, I would venture, and many of those will not be driving, but will rather be passengers. Should they also be subject to this treatment? Ridiculous.
 
Hot off the presses...

Fairfax County Police press release on the subject at hand...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After a series of escalating violent incidents at a few establishments that serve alcohol in the Reston area, officers decided to implement an operation to combat the problem at its source. Police were repeatedly being called to the same few establishments as many as three times each night for alcohol-related problems such as large brawls (one involving over 60 people), assaults, disorderly persons and destruction of property. There was growing concern for the safety of patrons as well as the community as a whole. Prior to implementing any program of enforcement, a survey was conducted of all establishments serving alcohol in the Reston area in conjunction with the Virginia Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control and the Fairfax County Fire Marshals Office to develop a strategy. It was determined that those establishments to which officers were frequently called were the same ones with safety violations cited by those agencies.

A joint operation was conducted on three evenings for six hours between December 8, 2002 and January 3, 2003 and during this time, officers in plain clothes visited as many as six establishments each night. The overwhelming majority of the establishments were in compliance with all laws; however, arrests were made in the same three establishments previously identified as non-compliant. A total of 12 arrests were made in those three establishments. Nine of those arrests were for persons who were drunk in public. The remaining three arrests were for drug-related charges and obstructing justice. The main purpose for enforcing alcohol-related laws in our community is to save lives. Being drunk in public has always been illegal in Virginia and this type of enforcement has been utilized for over 20 years. This is one component of a multi-faceted approach to solving alcohol-related crime which includes DWI checkpoints, roving patrols, underage alcohol sales stings, bar checks, and a large-scale education campaign.

Virginia law designates establishments open to the public as public places, therefore law enforcement officers can enter these establishments to ensure public safety. If a person is deemed to be intoxicated, that person can be arrested for appearing drunk in public according to Virginia law. Contrary to some reports, police did not raid establishments dressed in SWAT gear, indiscriminately drag people off their barstools, force them outside and cart them to jail merely for having a cocktail. In fact, the nine persons arrested were identified as being heavily intoxicated. The lowest blood alcohol level detected was .14, which is almost twice that of the legal limit for driving. There is no established blood alcohol level for public intoxication, according to Virginia state law; intoxication is defined as “a condition in which a person has drunk enough alcoholic beverages to affect his manner, disposition, speech, muscular movement, general appearance or behavior.â€

As a matter of legal obligation, law enforcement agencies are required to enforce laws related to alcohol use. The Fairfax County Police Department does not wish to stand by and treat the symptoms of alcohol use after an alcohol-related crash or death has occurred. Rather, we have proactively partnered with the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control and other regional law enforcement agencies to target the root causes of alcohol-related deaths. This is accomplished by enforcing the laws related to intoxication in public places, illegal purchasing of alcohol by underage persons, failure of merchants to adhere to legal requirements of the service of alcoholic beverages, and other crimes associated with alcohol consumption in public places.

Unfortunately, during the last twenty years 8,346 Virginians lost their lives because of drinking and driving. During 2002, 62 people were killed in traffic crashes in Fairfax County and it is disturbing to note that 25% of these crashes were related to alcohol use. The cost in human lives, pain, suffering, medical and property damage is staggering. Four of the nine persons arrested in this operation for appearing drunk in public were arrested in their vehicles or as they approached their vehicles.
The Fairfax County Police Department did not arbitrarily select alcohol establishments in the Herndon and Reston areas. The sites were selected based upon statistical data, calls for service related to alcohol violations, arrest data related to alcohol incidents (i.e., Driving While Intoxicated, Drunk in Public, assaults, etc.), crash data, and other reliable information regarding alcohol violations in and around these establishments. The enforcement of such laws is to clearly send a message to the community that we will not tolerate illegal use of alcohol, which is a major factor in creating deaths on our roadways and decreasing the quality of life in our neighborhoods.

Lastly, our enforcement efforts have an educational component. The police department will be meeting with the managers and owners of all of the establishments where enforcement efforts took place. These meetings will be utilized to educate owners and managers about alcohol-related laws to prevent future violations of those laws
 
Okay, in the spirit of Ayn Rand's quote; "There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. ... Create a nation of law-breakers, and then you cash in on the guilt"

What happens to you if you get convicted of "public intoxication"?

Are you now labeled by the state as an "abuser of alcohol"?

Aren't "abusers of alcohol" barred from exercising their 2nd amendment rights now days?


just a paranoid little thought :uhoh:
 
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