'Disturbing Trend' Seen In Negligent Discharges Of Weapons In Afghanistan

Status
Not open for further replies.

Drizzt

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Messages
2,647
Location
Moscow on the Colorado, TX
'Disturbing Trend' Seen In Negligent Discharges Of Weapons In Afghanistan

By Jon R. Anderson, Stars and Stripes

KANDAHAR AIRFIELD, Afghanistan — In the past 18 months, troops in Afghanistan have accidentally killed themselves or others at least six times and wounded nearly two dozen more troops through unsafe weapons handling, according to Army statistics released to Stars and Stripes.

In what military officials call negligent discharges, last year troops mistakenly fired their weapons 24 times in Afghanistan, injuring 18 and killing four.

So far this year, five troops have been wounded and two more have been killed in 16 accidental discharges.

In the same time frame, 24 troops have died from combat-related injuries in Afghanistan.

The top enlisted solider in Afghanistan called the staccato of accidental firings a “disturbing trend†and took leaders to task recently for failing to enforce basic standards to prevent the mistakes.

“Insufficient training, ineffective supervision, negligence, inattentiveness and outright indiscipline are all contributing factors,†Command Sgt. Maj. Cynthia Pritchett wrote in a recent column for the military’s weekly newsletter in Afghanistan.

Pritchett penned the column after seeing six negligent discharges in her Kabul headquarters over the past two months.

Although no one was injured in any of those accidents, Lance Cpl. Russell White wasn’t so lucky.

Assigned to 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines, White was the most recent fatality in Afghanistan when a fellow Marine mistakenly shot him in the head with a 9 mm pistol on June 20.

Spc. Jason Perkins knows he — or one his buddies — narrowly escaped becoming the next fatality.

A 22-year-old combat engineer with the Louisiana National Guard, Perkins shot himself in the foot with his M16 rifle July 6 at Kandahar Airfield in southern Afghanistan.

Perkins’ rifle was on safe, but when his weapon caught on part of his uniform the bolt slammed forward, chambering a round and discharging.

“I feel pretty stupid,†said Perkins, who’s still recovering at Kandahar. “I’m just so glad I shot myself and not someone else.â€

Perkins did two things wrong, according to standard safety regulations: He left the bolt pulled back, and he should have paid attention to where the weapon was pointing.

Those are two of many things soldiers, and their leaders, need to pay attention to, wrote Pritchett. “Muzzle control, selector switch operations and fire disciple are critical to weapon safety. Whenever you see a safety violation, correct it. A moment’s inattention can lead to disaster.â€

The statistics in Afghanistan do not include suicides and friendly-fire incidents such as the one that left former professional football star and Army Ranger Pat Tillman dead after a firefight in April.

Instead, negligent discharges could more appropriately be dubbed “forgetful fire.â€

“Very few of these incidents happen due to a malfunction of the weapon itself; it is almost always due to negligent actions of the operator, or improper or inadequate training and supervision,†said Lt. Col. Susan Meisner, U.S. forces spokeswoman in Afghanistan.

Although Army safety officials prefer the term “accidental discharge,†most leaders use “negligent discharge,†said Meisner, “to drive home the point.â€

She said that of the weapons mistakes in Afghanistan, about half have occurred while troops were clearing their weapons into clearing barrels. But during all the mistakes, she said, “proper clearing procedures were not followed.â€

Leaders attribute the high rate of negligent discharges in Afghanistan to lack of basic awareness, she said.

“Soldiers aren’t accustomed to carrying loaded weapons, and high turnover in theater requires constant training and reminders,†she said.

Despite the fatalities and injuries, so far no troops in Afghanistan have faced criminal charges, officials said.

Instead, most have been handed letters of reprimand or nonjudicial Article 15 punishments, which include reductions in rank and fines, but do not remain on permanent records.

Although she said that military investigators have not determined “criminally culpable intent for a neglient-homicide charge†in any of the fatalities, White’s death remains under investigation.
 
Perkins’ rifle was on safe, but when his weapon caught on part of his uniform the bolt slammed forward, chambering a round and discharging.

Sounds more like a slam fire to me... How often does the military see those?
 
"Perkins’ rifle was on safe, but when his weapon caught on part of his uniform the bolt slammed forward, chambering a round and discharging."

hmmmmmm..... :scrutiny:

Maybe they are using some new mods on their M16/M4's. :rolleyes:

I know if mine is on safe and I drop the bolt it won't fire. You have to pull that thingy inside the trigger guard.
 
It's very rare on the AR15/M16, but it is possible. The firing pin is floating, and often makes little dents in primers when you just hit the bolt catch. All it would take is a very soft primer on the top round in the mag.
 
This is what happens when you have a lot of people who are not used to carrying arms every day suddenly having to learn how to do so. I knew many uniformed folks who only touched a weapon in basic, even though they had been in 5-10 years. There are skills that take a long time to pick up, and that must be practiced, that just are not taught in any service. Anyone who does want to learn has to buy their own firearms and equipment, and find someone willing to teach them, because it is considered a taboo subject by many. :banghead:
 
Sounds to me like the doof (or possibly someone in his chain of command, who should by now be known as "private") thought it was safer to have the thing with a loaded mag and the bolt locked back, than to have a round chambered with the safety on...
 
I would bet that Perkin's rifle was on safe right after it went bang. :uhoh:

Slam fires have been a non issue since the 60s. Most people will tell the story so that it puts them in the best light.

That said, weapons handling training in the military is non-existant in many units. The FMs only pay lip service to it. NCOs and officers are often as bad about it as the soldiers they are in charge of. Ammunition is strictly controlled in training environments and rule 1 is routinely ignored because it's very rare for soldiers to ever have ammunition. Ranges are not usually hot, they are usually strictly run and the only times weapons are handled while loaded, there is plenty of supervision to make sure they are pointed downrange. Tactical live fire exercises are most often set up with so many safety procedures in place that they lack realism.

It's an institutional problem that won't be fixed until the chain of command at the top levels changes the mindset of the big Army.

Jeff
 
Slam fires have been a non issue since the 60s. Most people will tell the story so that it puts them in the best light.

From what I understand ( and I am NOT an AR expert ) I have read of rare slamfires with ARs including one witness by CSM of unit.

I know they are not supposed to happen, I know most of the time it is somebody BSing to make themselves look less foolish. But my understanding is that they do occur though rarely.

NukemJim
 
In what military officials call negligent discharges, last year troops mistakenly fired their weapons 24 times in Afghanistan, injuring 18 and killing four.
That ratio is too high. Either there are a lot of unreported NDs happening, or our soldiers are using each other as backstops.

pax

The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he's on. -- Joseph Heller
 
"Perkins’ rifle was on safe, but when his weapon caught on part of his uniform the bolt slammed forward, chambering a round and discharging."

For this to happen as written:

-a loaded mag would have had to have been inserted
-the bolt would have had to have been locked back as if a mag just ran out, or as if one was doing an inspection, and then (we are in the desert right?) the ejection port is covered manually
-no one carries the weapon that way
-he had to have been moving around for it to 'catch' on his uniform-how exactly was he doing that?

That said, everytime I ever fired the M16 (I am a former Marine so lots here) that required a mag change or insertion of one, also required the bolt to be let go on that loaded mag, inserting a round into the chamber. Never, and I mean never, did the round go off without me pressing the trigger following the chambering of the round.

Never.

Naa, someone was horsing around, or did something not even in the realm of reasonability. Weapon on safe my ***, the person handling it was on 'stupid fire'.

That said, military NG's absolutely happen when lots of people are taken from peacetime posts, where in some cases every single round is accounted for and shooting is rare anyway, to a combat area, where they are 'given'a few hundred rounds to have with them all the time, are using discharge barrels and weapon cleaning with that ammo on a very regular basis. Until the military focuses on it's mission and trains accordingly all the time, everywhere (this means live ammo all the time), these will happen, with numbers reletive to the experience and quantity of the Marines and soldiers involved. In other words, everyday live ammo handling experience is dreadfully lacking, and no one is immune unless they train with it. Often.

(I remember a Gunny in the First Great Sandbox War doing the discharge barrel discharge mamba with his issued 9mm only a couple of days after the entire batallion was warned that anyone having a NG was an automatic stripe loss. He didn't lose his :rolleyes: but did have to give an embarrassing safety lecture in front of the entire batallion instead-almost as bad in his case.)

Cruc
 
Although Army safety officials prefer the term “accidental discharge,†most leaders use “negligent discharge,†said Meisner, “to drive home the point.â€

Does this say what I think it says?

"We're having NDs, but we want to call them ADs because it sounds nicer."
 
?Very few of these incidents happen due to a malfunction of the weapon itself; it is almost always due to negligent actions of the operator, or improper or inadequate training and supervision,? said Lt. Col. Susan Meisner, U.S. forces spokeswoman in Afghanistan.

It's about effing time! Isn't this what the gun community been saying for years?! Instead we've got all these people whining about how the Glock is a "defective handgun" because it doesn't have a 35# trigger pull, or an LCI that flashes red and shouts "WARNING: LOADED CHAMBER". :cuss:
 
Shot himself in the foot? Sounds like he wants to get home to Rosy Rottencrotch.
 
Civilian Milita to the Rescue

“Soldiers aren’t accustomed to carrying loaded weapons, and high turnover in theater requires constant training and reminders,†she said

***
I wonder if they know why DCM and NRA were created? Maybe a letter to Stars & Stripes and NRA is in order?

I wonder how many anti gun people might change their minds about us non military and non leo if they realized how many of us practice better (safer) weapons handling and are more serious about markmanship? Or change their minds about LEO and military being able to carry weapons in public :D
 
“Insufficient training, ineffective supervision, negligence, inattentiveness and outright indiscipline are all contributing factors,â€

No shinola.

crucible hit the nail on the head. There just is not enough gun handling and handling of weapons with live rounds in the services. The careerist "leadership" is so blasted worried about possible NDs that they don't give their men enough time to train with the real deal.

Sheesh, my wife, who has never been in the service and never fired a weapon until she met me, has better gunhandling skills and muzzle discipline than most the guys I met in the service. But then, my wife has common sense, can follow instructions, and has had the advantage of my undivided attention and training.
 
Any ND's or AD's at IDPA matches?

The story is just verification the army has lost sight of its primary mission using its primary weapon. Rear echelon types can't shoot. Army repeatedly runs out of ammo. Management gets thumped really bad for and ND or AD so the solution is to baby trainees to the point they have NO instruction in safe gun handling.

It is a sad state of affairs when the US Army needs a private organization to teach it about safety. I suggest getting some certified NRA instructors over to Ashcanistan to train in safety or fly Eddie Eagle over.

Maybe an offer of Eddie Eagle to the Army will make a point.
 
"Maybe an offer of Eddie Eagle to the Army will make a point."

Might want to include the USMC in on that offer as well, judging from the above article.:rolleyes:
 
The army is concerned about this problem and has been for a while. This is from a post I made in a thread on the Infantry School's Forum on fixes for Marksmanship training:

If I were to start a new BRM program, the first thing I would concentrate on was weapons handling and manipulation. This could be done without ammunition and the drill sergeants could start a couple weeks before they ever went to the range. Put the rifle racks in the bay with the soldiers. This would require a rewrite of AR190-11, but it would pay us some dividends. Number one-our future Infantrymen would become very familiar with their primary weapon. Do everything in the first couple weeks of the BCT phase with weapons that is feasable. Take them everywhere, the drill sergeants should be more ruthless in enforcing the standards of proper weapons handling then they are in enforcing uniform violations. Fingers off triggers, muzzles not covering anyone else etc. Do this for the first two weeks. In week 3, move into dry firing. Trigger control, sight alignment, dime washer exercises. Firing positions besides prone (supported and unsupported) and foxhole (supported and unsupported). There is all kinds of time you could use for this. Imagine trainees having to squeeze off a round (dry fire) without knocking the dime or washer off his barrel before he gets into the mess hall. Think of how much stress would be there if he already was winded from some pushups or flutter kicks. The second benefit would be that when our trainees were ready to move into actual marksmanship instruction, they'd already have some basic skills. Spend their first day with live ammunition firing 5 round grouping exercises. Let them fire prone supported at 25 meters. They are coached until they can fire 5 consecutive 5 round groups to standard. Then have them fire a few more groups, adjusting their sights and moving the group around on the target. This will allow them to understand how their sights work and how moving them moves the strike of the bullets before we ever get to the range to zero. The next day, we go to the range to zero. There shouldn't be any trainee who can't zero, because he if hasn't passed the gateway of the grouping range, he's not there at the zero range. After zero day, we move to the KD range. A day on the KD range, firing enough rounds so they know where to aim to hit at varying ranges. We don't adjust our target sights here. We use hold over and Kentucky windage. I've never been a big fan of the A2 sight. I suppose it's great at Camp Perry, but I challenge anyone to give me a verified instance where a soldier actually dialed in his range on the A2 sight in combat. So I think we're wasting time teaching our future Infantrymen to manipulate this sight. BZO it and leave it alone.

After the KD range, we move onto the field fire ranges. Pop up targets at unknown distances. Then a practice record fire and a record fire.

Teaching soldiers to shoot well is not going to be an insurmountable task, but it's going to have to have more resourcing and emphisis put on it then we currently do.

There are some units with good commanders who are conducting good meaningful training, but unfortunately it's not enough. Mindset will have to change at a very high level to fix this problem throughout the Army.

Jeff
 
Glamdring...great observation! The DCM and Nra are great sources ,(and resources) for training. Too bad they are so underused. Wish I had time to shoot Highpower in a DCM club. Heck, I wish I could shoot more of anything...any where!
Mark.
 
The army is concerned about this problem and has been for a while. This is from a post I made in a thread on the Infantry School's Forum on fixes for Marksmanship training:

How about a link to the Infantry School forum? Sounds like some great discussions.
 
Trebor,
After it went down the last time, they restricted access to those with Army Knowledge Online accounts. The forum hasn't had much activity in the past couple months. If you've got an AKO account, I'll forward you the link.

Jeff
 
There just is not enough gun handling and handling of weapons with live rounds in the services.

...or in civilian life. The great thing about the national gun schools, (Gunsite, Front Sight, TR, LFI etc) is that they emphasize this. Imagine how safe & effective our armed services would be if all or most had been to one of these schools' basic courses as a civvie?

+ditto the comment about civlian gun nuts who are far safer than most military.
 
I'm not surprised in the least. Of course you're going to have a number of NDs when you take people who rarely train with their weapons and suddenly have them carrying in condition one everyday. A lot of these guys are Reservists, National Guard, and non-grunts. A fair number of them were never exposed to weapons until basic, and even then it was a limited amount of training which they looked upon lightly due to having a non-combat MOS.

When one looks at the big picture, the problem isn't that bad. There have been only 22 casualties due to NDs in the last 18 months. Of course one is too many, but realistically we have to accept that NDs will happen. I'd be willing to bet that other "accidents" account for a much higher number of casualties. I'm unaware as to the exact number of troops there now but I think that 9,000 would be a fair estimate (please correct me if I'm off by a large amount). Using this number, the amount of NDs doesn't look too significant (about .267% if my morning math skills are correct). Of course the amount of unreported NDs would bump this up a bit, but likely not enough to make it too significant.

I'm not saying that NDs aren't a problem, I'd just stating that IMHO there are other things that account for a greater number of troops being unable to perform combat duties.
 
I agree Cannibal.

From a "numbers" perspectvie, if there are 10k troops, and if over a year, and if only 1% of them have an ND, then that means there are 100 NDs!!!!

My guess is that I would have less risk of an injury from an ND while running around with the soldiers and Marines in Afghanistan than I would driving on a highway in the US.

As far as the gun schools go, I recall reading that the hotels near Gunsite have asked them to tell their students to NOT dry fire in their hotel rooms because they got tired of fixing bullet holes.

The first ND I had experience with was when I was in about 6th grade and our neighbor, from his bedroom, put a .45 through our front door. Just like car accidents, they do happen and they will happen.

Numbers aside, firearms safety is an area all branches could use more training.



In fact, I should take some time for review myself.

The 1st Rule of Gun Safety - The Gun Is Always Loaded!

The 2nd Rule of Gun Safety - Never Point A Gun At Something You're Not Prepared To Destroy!

The 3rd Rule of Gun Safety - Always Be Sure Of Your Target And What Is Behind It!

The 4th Rule of Gun Safety - Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Your Sights Are On The Target!
 
In my opinion, this is not a training issue. Soldiers are taught to obey the the rules of firearms safety and most leaders supervise their personnel and make corrections.

It is correct that there is a leadership failure, but it does not stem from improper supervision but rather a reluctance to hold soldiers accountable for their failures. Soldiers are not held acountable for their failures until an incident occurs.

The article mentions that soldiers are given non-judicial punishment under Article 15. That punishment comes in the form of loss of pay (not a big deal when you cannot spend it and your receiving extra pay for being in a combat zone), extra-duty (most soldiers are working 20 hour days to begin with), restriction (they are in Afghanistan, they are already restricted), loss of rank (some loss of prestige but essentially the same issue as taking pay) and oral or written admonition. The punishment being handed out is ineffective and fails to provide an example to others of the consequences of poor weapons handling.

In my opinion, what should be occurring is that Soldiers found with their weapons "off safe" should be given Article 15's. Soldiers experienceing a neglegent discharge should be investigated under AR 15-6 and, if appropriate, recieve a summary court martial. Officers/Non-commissioned Officers should also be relieved.

Leaders are further culpable by creating the conditions for ND's to occur. Policies regarding having magazines in, but no round chambered and clearing weapons to enter certain locations all conspire to set Soldiers up for failure. Soldiers should be allowed to make their weapon hot and leave it that way. On those few occasions that weapons need to be cleared, the process should be conducted in an organized fashion under supervision.

The final fault of the leaders is to realize that every incident could not have been prevented by better training. Every ND is not a failure on the part of the leaders to train their Soldiers and every Soldier who has an ND is not representative of all Soldiers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top