Do All Revolver Frames Stretch?

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Frames do stretch and revolvers do wear out. High pressure loads and the stress the put on a revolver exacerbate this exponentially. S&W 29's wouldn't have the reputation for shooting loose if they didn't and modern metallurgy can't save them. The biggest factor in that is the design of the frame, because it stretches.The sideplate design allows too much flex and that movement creates wear over time. The question is, does the average shooter shoot these guns enough to find out? The answer is a resounding "no". Those that shoot thousands of rounds through a single firearm are shooting low pressure loads out of competition guns, so a Jerry Miculek is going to have a very different experience from a Dick Casull.

There are very good reasons why the Ruger Redhawk is a very different design from the S&W N-frame, which is a relic of the blackpowder era. Ole Bill had the benefit of hindsight and intentionally engineered all the weaknesses out of the S&W design. That's why the frame is solid and the trigger mechanism drops out from below. That's why the bot notches are placed between the chambers, rather than over them. The frame is not heavier because it's cast, it's heavier so that it does not move. The barrel shank is larger, which translates to a more robust forcing cone. Everyone waxes poetic about the S&W "Triple Lock" but forgets that Ruger also has three locking points. They were overbuilt for the .44Mag and allow for the full potential of the cartridge to be realized. Along with the easy transition to the .454 and .480 cartridges.
 
__steve__ said:
I wonder what psi quickload would report with a double load of tightgroup, magnum primer and heavy crimp
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I did a double charge of Titegroup under a 180gr 40-cal bullet in 40 S&W in a S&W 10mm. Yes 9.0 grs is too much! QL says that combination should have gotten to ~90,000 psi. In my case the case head blew before I got there. The case came out in two, nearly three, pieces after driving the cylinder open. I could measure a very minor stretching of that chamber in the diametrical direction but only ~.1 inch into the chamber and the stretch was only a few thousands. I sent it back to S&W for a safety check. S&W said all was good, replaced the cylinder stop and cylinder stop spring for me free and I had the gun back 8-days later. I have since put over 20,000 rd through that 610.
 
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Gun1 said:
What causes elastic distortion?
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This happens when the tensile stresses on a susceptible material exceeds the yield point for the metal.

It's also known as elastic limit.

For materials which don't have a well defined yield point, the quantity "yield strength" is substituted. This is the stress at which a material has undergone some arbitrarily chosen amount of permanent deformation, usually 0.2%.

Any amount of tensile stress BELOW the yield point will not result in permanent deformation: the material will return to its original shape.
 
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I wear out springs long before I will wear out frames. I think of them as the brake rotors of your car, you’ll get a lot of mileage out of a set but once they wear you need to swap them out.

Stay safe.
 
Howdy

I bought this brass framed Cap & Ball revolver when I was just a kid in 1968. In those days nobody was cautioning us against full power loads in a brass framed revolver, so I fired lots of loads of 40 grains of Black Powder through it. Eventually I noticed it was shooting high, higher than it used to. When reassembling the barrel to the frame after cleaning it I noticed in order to get the barrel cylinder gap where I needed it to be, the barrel was pointing up a little bit. Whether the frame had stretched, or the arbor had pulled out a little bit, it is now a wall hanger and I do not shoot it anymore.

po10HmLRj.jpg




This 44-40 Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army was made sometime in the 1870s or 1880s, I'm not really sure exactly when. Because it lacks a top strap, over time (before I owned it) the barrel cylinder gap has opened up quite a lot, I think it may be close to .020, but I don't remember exactly. What has happened over time is because it lacks a top strap, the barrel is now pointing down ever so slightly, opening up the b/c gap. I suspect there has been some deformation over time where the barrel assembly joins the frame. The later models of this revolver included a top strap because MH recognized the problems with open top frames. Of course the steel in this old revolver is nowhere near as strong as modern steel.

plcAM7Ijj.jpg




I have lots of modern revolvers. All calibers, 45 Colt, 44 Special, 357 Mag, 38 Special, and a few 32s. I would not worry about frames stretching with any modern revolvers made of modern steel, either carbon steel or stainless. Maybe a 44 Mag if it was fired a huge amount with factory 44 Mag, but other than that I would not worry about it.
 
M&H open-top revolvers are definitely elegant looking. It's obviously the latching system that keeps the barrel assy in the firing position that is the "weak link" so to speak. The barrel not being "fixed" takes a beating over time.
The "not as fancy" Colt platform has an advantage of being "fixed" or locked in position with the wedge. I find it interesting and a little intriguing that the M&H wasn't offered in 45C but we shoot it regularly in the reproduction Colt ot's.
This thread being about frames, I'm testing the open-top Colt platform with a new Uberti '60 Army with a 45acp cylinder and keeping a close watch on any tolerance changes. So far it has been flawless but my range time isn't what I wish it could be!! 400 rounds of factory ammo including some "not recommended " ( I'm not babying it !!) in the mix. Soon I'll be sending some lead reloads down range and maybe some "heavyweights" ( 250gr at least).
So far, it has been a most excellent performer and a range favorite!!
20220804_191948.jpg

Mike
 
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What causes elastic distortion?
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When sufficient force is applied to any object, it will deform. If the object returns to its original dimensions when the force is released then the distortion was elastic. If the object does not return to its original dimensions then the yield point of the material was reached and the distortion was plastic.

In some materials (e.g. aluminum) repeated elastic distortion will eventually cause failure even if the distortion is very small. It may take many, many repetitions, but eventually it will fail no matter how small the elastic distortion is. In other materials like steel, if the amount of elastic distortion is small enough (below the fatigue limit) then no matter how many repetitions the material is subjected to it will never fail.
 
Not much chatter about it but I've seen several reports of range rental X-frames loosening up after a couple thousand rounds.
 
45 Dragoon said:
M&H open-top revolvers are definitely elegant looking. It's obviously the latching system that keeps the barrel assy in the firing position that is the "weak link" so to speak. The barrel not being "fixed" takes a beating over time.
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I don't think so. The joint that secures the barrel assembly to the frame in that Merwin Hulbert is still quite tight. What I believe happened over time is that the portion of the barrel assembly above the joint bent slightly over time, causing the barrel/cylinder gap to open.

This pair of Merwin Hulberts were made a few years later and they incorporate a top strap.This pair were extensively reworked to get them working again, hence the obvious over polishing.

pmctV766j.jpg




I have fired this one a bit, it is chambered for 44 Russian, and I do not recall it having an issue with an overly large barrel/cylinder gap.

polXsmCLj.jpg
 
JohnKSa said:
When sufficient force is applied to any object, it will deform. If the object returns to its original dimensions when the force is released then the distortion was elastic. If the object does not return to its original dimensions then the yield point of the material was reached and the distortion was plastic.

In some materials (e.g. aluminum) repeated elastic distortion will eventually cause failure even if the distortion is very small. It may take many, many repetitions, but eventually it will fail no matter how small the elastic distortion is. In other materials like steel, if the amount of elastic distortion is small enough (below the fatigue limit) then no matter how many repetitions the material is subjected to it will never fail.
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Are 357 Ruger Sp101 revolvers below the fatigue limit?
On that note, for semi-auto pistols, will the frame slide rails eventually wear out or fail from the slide's metal on metal contact when cycling regardless of fatigue limit?
 
As to frame stretching:

I have several Ruger Blackhawks, both in .44 Magnum and .45 Colt. Most of these have had a mos generous amount of magnum vicinity handloads. One, a .45 Colt, has had a generous amount of 350 gr. cast bullets fired through it and stand at 20,000 round fired through it. Others show in excess of 15,000 rounds. None of these show any signs of frame stretching.

One gun, a modified Colt SAA, with the top strap milled out for a S&W rear sight and in .357 Magnum, did suffer a stretched top strap. This occurred while firing and went unnoticed until the rear of the cylinder bound up against the top strap. This was realigned by my gunsmith and is now confined to .38 Special ammunition.

That's my experience.

Bob Wright

P.S. All of my "shootin' guns" have steel frames. My desk drawer gun is alloy framed.
 
@BobWright do you think that the top strap being milled had something to do with the frame stretching? I was under the impression that the SAA was more than strong enough for .357.
 
Are 357 Ruger Sp101 revolvers below the fatigue limit?
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Just shoot the gun as much as you can afford given ammo costs and range fees. If it develops a problem, send it back to Ruger and they will take care of you. That said, I've not heard of people having issues with frame failures in any modern steel-framed revolvers shot with factory ammunition.
On that note, for semi-auto pistols, will the frame slide rails eventually wear out or fail from the slide's metal on metal contact when cycling regardless of fatigue limit?
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A metal part can fail due to being defective, due to metal being worn away by abrasion/friction, by galling damage, by fretting fatigue, by fatigue, by plastic deformation or from excessive corrosion. Manufacturers that make quality firearms and stand behind them will deal with most of these issues constructively during the design and manufacture process and will correct issues that slip through with recalls or warranty work. Most of the remainder can be dealt with by the owner with proper maintenance and use.

None of that will result in guns that can be shot for hundreds of thousands of rounds and still last forever. If it is critical that your guns last forever, don't ever shoot them and make sure they are stored properly so they don't corrode or get damaged in storage. This will also save you a ton of money on ammo costs, range fees, maintenance products and also save you a lot of time. Finally, it will put your mind at ease about the longevity of your firearms.
 
Kookla said:
@BobWright do you think that the top strap being milled had something to do with the frame stretching? I was under the impression that the SAA was more than strong enough for .357.
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I am almost sure of that. The gun had belonged to my son-n-law, and to his father before that. My son-in-law had the work done just before I came into possession of it and I had put maybe three thousand rounds of .357 Magnum through it when it stretched. My gunsmith felt the milling had weakened the top strap to lead to stretching. He re-aligned the frame and suggested I keep it to.38 Special level cartridges. I have done that and no more troubles have arisen.

Bob Wright
 
Yes,

Frames can stretch and aluminum is more likely than steel. However, steel can be effected as well. For a number of years, aluminum guns were warned to be used with non +P loads. So +P was ok, at least in limited number of rounds in your S&W model 36 (5 shot, steel J-frame) and not recommended in your S&W model 37 (5 shot, aluminum J-frame). I switched from a S&W model 38 to a model 36 for that reason and the softer recoil from the heavier gun.

The S&W model 10 was basically THE POLICE REVOLVER until some departments started reporting problems with prolonged use of +P ammo. This was one of the reasons that S&W brought out the L-frame revolvers which were built to hand the .357 magnum round from the beginning. In the K-frame guns, like the model 10, it was more of a problem with the guns going out of time, if I remember correctly. When I went through the academy, my class was handed 47 model 13 S&W revolvers and a quarter of them had problems. Using .357 ammo only made the problems worse. The forcing cone on one of our model 13's split when an officer tried to qualify with the 125 grain jhp instead of the standard issue 110 grain ammo.
After that, all the newer guns I saw officers issued were RUGER Security Sixes or GP-100 or S&W L-frames.

Jim
 
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