Do dirty barrels shoot better?
- Thread starter greg788
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Every target shooter I know fouls the barrel first. This is mostly so all shots will be the same. Some (many) rilfes throw a shot from a clean barrel to a different point of impact than from a fouled barrel. Since you can't clean after every shot, folks shoot a fouler or two, and then shoot the match. That doesn't mean a dirty barrel shoots better, it's just consistent. (Until it gets too dirty, of course) 
Some hunters sight in at the start of deer season, and won't clean until after deer season. They want to be sure of the P.O.I. of that first shot.
Some hunters sight in at the start of deer season, and won't clean until after deer season. They want to be sure of the P.O.I. of that first shot.
geronimo509
Member
I was told that the first shot isnt always that accurate and it has to do with the barrel being cold?? once that happens you should be able to get good groups. Please correct me if I am wrong. I do not believe it has to do with how clean the barrel is, but if it is warmed up.
Birdhunter1
Member
What walkalong said. I have yet to have any of mine shoot consistent with the first 5 shots after being squeaky clean. One rifle takes 7 shots, one takes 12, one starts shooting good after about 3 shots.
As far as I know for new barrels it has nothing to do with being dirty or clean. Factory new barrels have tiny machining/forging leftovers, burrs we will call them. These get smoothed out by shooting bullets down the barrel sort of like lapping. These things people say will interfere with accuracy and that is why people recommend breaking in a new barrel.
I believe your first shot is the most accurate as your barrel heats up it will change your POI it all depends if your sights or optics are zeroed to a hot or cold barrel if that makes sense. A mini 14 is a good example of this they are know to be accurate until the barrel heats up. You as a shooter may need a few shots to warm up though.
I believe your first shot is the most accurate as your barrel heats up it will change your POI it all depends if your sights or optics are zeroed to a hot or cold barrel if that makes sense. A mini 14 is a good example of this they are know to be accurate until the barrel heats up. You as a shooter may need a few shots to warm up though.
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As barrels foul, the change point of impact. Barrels can foul so much that it does effect accuracy.
I recall talking about this to Frank White of Compass Lake Enginnering in his spot on Commercial Row at Camp Perry. Frank sees more accuracy related problems in a year than most of us will in a lifetime. He also has a barrel scope. He told me he had a number of barrels returned because the accuracy had gone south. One was owned by a gentleman I know. Frank could look in the barrel with his scope and see massive crud build up in the throat. He claimed that chemical cleaners would not get that stuff out, and to remove that junk, you needed to use something like JB Bore paste. And for the barrel mentioned, a good cleaning restored the barrel to target accuracy.
Using an abrasive like JB Bore paste should only be done “rarely”. Depending on the caliber of course, but I won’t push a patch with Bore paste more often than 300 rounds in a 30 caliber barrel. I could probably go longer.
In fact, as my last M1a barrel wore out, I stopped using bore paste. The last I used bore paste, and cleaned out the junk, the zero radically changed, something like 4 MOA in elevation, and it took up to the seventh round standing before it stabilized.
I always clean my barrel after a match, so I always have a very clean barrel when I start shooting standing a 200 yards. Many a time I have to make an elevation adjustment in the string because the barrel is changing its point of impact as it fouls.
For cheap barrels, poorly chambered, and poorly bedded, with cheap bullets, (like military barrels with surplus ammunition) I really doubt anyone would see this phenomena. But with match barrels, match bullets, in match rifles, you will.
I recall talking about this to Frank White of Compass Lake Enginnering in his spot on Commercial Row at Camp Perry. Frank sees more accuracy related problems in a year than most of us will in a lifetime. He also has a barrel scope. He told me he had a number of barrels returned because the accuracy had gone south. One was owned by a gentleman I know. Frank could look in the barrel with his scope and see massive crud build up in the throat. He claimed that chemical cleaners would not get that stuff out, and to remove that junk, you needed to use something like JB Bore paste. And for the barrel mentioned, a good cleaning restored the barrel to target accuracy.
Using an abrasive like JB Bore paste should only be done “rarely”. Depending on the caliber of course, but I won’t push a patch with Bore paste more often than 300 rounds in a 30 caliber barrel. I could probably go longer.
In fact, as my last M1a barrel wore out, I stopped using bore paste. The last I used bore paste, and cleaned out the junk, the zero radically changed, something like 4 MOA in elevation, and it took up to the seventh round standing before it stabilized.
I always clean my barrel after a match, so I always have a very clean barrel when I start shooting standing a 200 yards. Many a time I have to make an elevation adjustment in the string because the barrel is changing its point of impact as it fouls.
For cheap barrels, poorly chambered, and poorly bedded, with cheap bullets, (like military barrels with surplus ammunition) I really doubt anyone would see this phenomena. But with match barrels, match bullets, in match rifles, you will.
I would shoot one fouling shot through my benchrest gun, then shoot my group (5 shots plus a sighter or two or sometimes 6 or 7), then give the barrel a good casual cleaning, then do it again.
Never a shot on the record target from a squeaky clean barrel, and never a chance for fouling to get bad enough to affect accuracy.
For hunting, we need to know where my first shot impacts. That is what counts. Clean or fouled, our choice.
Never a shot on the record target from a squeaky clean barrel, and never a chance for fouling to get bad enough to affect accuracy.
For hunting, we need to know where my first shot impacts. That is what counts. Clean or fouled, our choice.
cottonmouth
Member
After a good cleaning my 700 LTR needs to be shot 5 or 6 times before it will start shooting like it should.
J.B.
J.B.
wyocarp
Member
Are you guys saying that shooting a clean bullet down a barrel doesn't clean it?
Because, that's the way I've done it for decades.
Because, that's the way I've done it for decades.
rangerruck
Member
slamfire and walk are both right here; and there is another right. It really depends on the individual weapon, and the maker to a large extent. I remember reading a great article on this, about 1.5 yr ago. The testers used a variety of rifles, some new, some a few years old, some several years old. some semi's, some bolties, some levers.
Some rifles could benefit from being cleaned, some could not at all, some rifles shot near their first shot attempt, some were between 1 and 2 inches off, some were never anywhere near the first shot, and could not be counted on to group near it , either. The rifles were all treated the same; during portions of the test, they were thoroughly cleaned between groups, then they were just given 15 mins. between groups, then they were given a rest time of 1hr. or more, between groups. then they were given a week between groups. All the above, except the first of cleaning between groups, all the other testing was done , dirty.
Then all the above was done, but with cleaning between all the wait times.
Basically , the results were this; out of about 30 diff rifles, and diff mfgrs, all rifles performed better, clean. Not necessarily a lot, but better, and just generally so. Some rifles did not improve, no matter what they did, Mostly the Rugers. The levers liked to be clean, And a few rifles like a Savage in 243, a Howa heavy varmint in 223, and a Weatherby, and 1 or 2 others, really performed well. When I say performed well, this was by these standards;
the first shot, was very close or right on their point of aim, the following shots were very close to , or right on the first shot, the remaining group, was also in the same spot above.
So yes, if you have a crap bbl, or a custom bbl, if you want it to perform well, clean it; and also , if you have a match, since it is allready very clean, it is also the right thing to do , to put a couple of fouler rounds down it, as this will put your group tightly together, and near it's own perfect point of impact/ point of aim situation.
One more thing, this testing did not include 22 rifles, of which , I personally hardly ever clean mine, and do not clean, until accuracy starts to fall out.
Some rifles could benefit from being cleaned, some could not at all, some rifles shot near their first shot attempt, some were between 1 and 2 inches off, some were never anywhere near the first shot, and could not be counted on to group near it , either. The rifles were all treated the same; during portions of the test, they were thoroughly cleaned between groups, then they were just given 15 mins. between groups, then they were given a rest time of 1hr. or more, between groups. then they were given a week between groups. All the above, except the first of cleaning between groups, all the other testing was done , dirty.
Then all the above was done, but with cleaning between all the wait times.
Basically , the results were this; out of about 30 diff rifles, and diff mfgrs, all rifles performed better, clean. Not necessarily a lot, but better, and just generally so. Some rifles did not improve, no matter what they did, Mostly the Rugers. The levers liked to be clean, And a few rifles like a Savage in 243, a Howa heavy varmint in 223, and a Weatherby, and 1 or 2 others, really performed well. When I say performed well, this was by these standards;
the first shot, was very close or right on their point of aim, the following shots were very close to , or right on the first shot, the remaining group, was also in the same spot above.
So yes, if you have a crap bbl, or a custom bbl, if you want it to perform well, clean it; and also , if you have a match, since it is allready very clean, it is also the right thing to do , to put a couple of fouler rounds down it, as this will put your group tightly together, and near it's own perfect point of impact/ point of aim situation.
One more thing, this testing did not include 22 rifles, of which , I personally hardly ever clean mine, and do not clean, until accuracy starts to fall out.
that's one way to look at it, but i most commonly hear "the mini-14 isn't accurrate after it warms up"
the mini-14 is known for losing accurracy due to it's barrel shifting because if the thin barrel.
czarjl
Member
I always had to run a hand full of rounds though my competition .22lr rifle after I cleaned it to get it to hold a solid group. I would also fire 2 or 3 “warm up” round at the beginning of the match (not sure if it was me or the gun that was warming up but it worked, me so I did it religiously). Always used cheap bulk box ammo for this because it saved on cost (High school rifle team was not the most funded school sport).
jpwilly
Member
Shooting next to a gent and lady one day a the range I couldn't help overhear him tell the wife that his Remington use to shoot much better. We all go down range to check targets. He's shooting 4inch groups. Asked him if he's ever used copper solvent in the bore. He's like what's that! Got back to the bench and pulled out my cleaning rod and Sweets 7.62. Ran some patches let sit for 5-10min. Cleaned again. Ran some No9 down it too. Told him it will now shoot again (should have seen the fouling!) he looked at me kinda funny but said okay...if you say so. He went back and shot a much smaller group. Comes back over with a pen and paper says what the name of that stuff again?
Also, I've noticed that rifles with thin bbls tend to Walk when they get warmer and warmer especially those with changing "pressure" points. The M14, M1 Garand, PSL-54C, etc are prone to that. Free floating a bbl in a bolt action takes a lot of this out especially if it's a quality uniform bbl. All my rifles like to be clean. Once copper and carbon fouling build up enough the accuracy degrades.
Also, I've noticed that rifles with thin bbls tend to Walk when they get warmer and warmer especially those with changing "pressure" points. The M14, M1 Garand, PSL-54C, etc are prone to that. Free floating a bbl in a bolt action takes a lot of this out especially if it's a quality uniform bbl. All my rifles like to be clean. Once copper and carbon fouling build up enough the accuracy degrades.
jerkface11
Member
Get a chronograph. Then clean you barrel down to the bare metal. Shoot 10 rounds over the chronograph. You'll notice it takes a couple of shots for the velocity to become consistent.
jerkface11
Member
Get a chronograph. Then clean you barrel down to the bare metal. Shoot 10 rounds over the chronograph. You'll notice it takes a couple of shots for the velocity to become consistent.
jerkface11
Member
Get a chronograph. Then clean you barrel down to the bare metal. Shoot 10 rounds over the chronograph. You'll notice it takes a couple of shots for the velocity to become consistent.
helz_mcfugly
Member
my ruger 10/22 does. and my shooting buddy said the same thing about his and we both have bull barrels. mine is a rugger and his is some other brand. My AR's shoot better clean. My Glock doesnt give a S**t. it will shoot the same clean or if I drop it in the mud
czarjl
Member
I think that’s the whole idea of a Glock, its built to be used and abused...no that any of use would do such a thing.
Some guns are particular to how clean they are and other could care less. Its just like how some like any ammo that fits and other only like one obscure hard to find brand. Each and every gun is different just have to learn what yours likes and stick to it.
Some guns are particular to how clean they are and other could care less. Its just like how some like any ammo that fits and other only like one obscure hard to find brand. Each and every gun is different just have to learn what yours likes and stick to it.
W.E.G.
Member
How much "more accurately" are you trying to achieve?
For the average sporting rifle, you will see groups wander WAY MORE from the barrel heating up than you will ever see by comparing a "fouled" barrel from a "clean" barrel.
Almost nobody strips the bore down to bare metal after a range session (and indeed it would be unwise to do so). So, whatever you think is the difference between a "clean" barrel, and a "fouled" barrel, is imaginary anyway.
For the average sporting rifle, you will see groups wander WAY MORE from the barrel heating up than you will ever see by comparing a "fouled" barrel from a "clean" barrel.
Almost nobody strips the bore down to bare metal after a range session (and indeed it would be unwise to do so). So, whatever you think is the difference between a "clean" barrel, and a "fouled" barrel, is imaginary anyway.
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