Do I seek the 17HMR?

[Matt304]

I've decided that I want to buy a rifle capable of great 100 yard accuracy that is cheap to shoot - as far as ammo costs are concerned. By "cheap", I mean cheaper than 308, 223 etc. I mainly want to get more range time in on the bench with an accurate target rifle. My hope is for 1/4MOA accuracy.

The rifle cost is not an issue when I purchase.

Would you folks agree that a 17HMR bolt rifle with target barrel is probably what I should be going for? (My thoughts were to get a Ruger 77/17 with new barrel and trigger.)

I guess the only thing I think about on the negative side of things is that I would have 4 ammo choices, and that's it. Not a lot of room for improvement if I can't achieve the great accuracy I desire. At the same time, I probably can't come close to reloading another small rifle round for a similar cost per shot.

Also, where I shoot it is typically windy. That got me thinking about the HMR's not-so-great of a BC, and wondering how it will perform on the breezy days.

So maybe I can't achieve all of the great things with a cheap round, but that is why I am asking if the HMR is for me. Any advice or persuasion here for what I want to do would be great.

 

[ccd]

It is going to be hard to guarantee the 1/4 MOA with the Ruger action, or really any 17HMR. 1/2 yes, 1/4 not so much. To get this level of accuracy you are going to have to measure and sort the individual cases by rim thickness. If you are going to go to that much trouble you might as well just get a Very GOOD 22LR(Cooper or Anschutz), a benchrest scope, shoot Lapua or Eley high end match ammo and learn to get serious about reading wind and mirage.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Between 75 and 100, a high wind can get to the hummer a bit. If you live in a windy area, better step up to .22 hornet, .218 bee, .221 fireball, .17 rem fireball, .222 rem, or .223 rem.

If you don't get a lot of wind, then the hummer will do ya right. Even if you do, you can get some real nice groups at 100 most days with the .17 hummer.

 

[jwh2]

You may want to consider a CZ 452 Varmint in 17HMR. I have one and I really like it. As others have noted wind can really have an impact on your groups with such a light bullet. You might check out Rimfire Central.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=18


James

 

[hksw]

My hope is for 1/4MOA accuracy.

I'm a very big fan of the HMR. It is one of the most inherently accurate cartridge in factory loads being sold today that isn't 'match grade'. It will give high end .22 premium match ammo a run for its money. To expect it to shoot ¼ MOA at 100 yds consistantly even with using 3 round groups is a bit of a hard task for the cartridge, though, unless it is shot indoors.

IMO, if you want something with minimal or no modification (parts inserted or replaced) out of the box, I'd suggest Anschütz 1517 or 1717 or CZ 452 (with slightly modded trigger/sear)/453.

 

[Matt304]

CCD,

I also considered a 22LR target rifle like you say. However, my thoughts led me to believe that an HMR should have an edge over the 22 in that velocity is higher, and thus flight time is a bit lower. I assumed this would drive it to tighter groups in the wind than the slower 22LR.

22 hornet, .218 bee, .221 fireball, and .17 rem fireball all sound like good choices as well. I guess what I'm wondering is if it would make more sense for me to use a fast 17 with lighter bullets, or a slower 22 with heavier bullets.

 

[Wildfire]

Wind.

Hey There;
I don't think the wind (a Breeze ) will mess with you in the 100 yard zone.
As far as accuracy ? Some of the .22 rims. can be very accurate and I have yet to see a .17 HMR beat the good .22s....
1/4" will be a toss up. I have not seen that yet. But , Not saying that they won't.
They are a very nice little varmint round. Not much good for hunting things you want to eat. They are very explosive at the 100 yard mark and will totally destoy things like squirrels at closer ranges . I mean blow them to small parts. We have taken coon skunks and such , some crows etc. They really do well. Most all makes of rifle shoot these things well. We have two of the 93 R savage rifles in the lightest weight we could get. They shoot with the heavy barreled models. I have seen no difference in the accuracy.

 

[skinewmexico]

Of all the 17s I've seen shoot, the Ruger is always the least accurate. And I think the wind thing is overblown. You can learn to dope it. Most 17s will really like one brand of ammo for some reason. I think it will be easy to get 1/2 MOA at 100, but not 1/4". And you'll have to spend about 5 times as much to get a 22 that will shoot as well at 100 as the average 17.

 

[Wildfire]

1/2" not 1/4" agreed.

Hey there:
I agree with the last post on the groups. But,,,,, My Ruger .22 VBZ with a Weaver 4 x 16 shoots 1/4" at 50 and 1" at 100 meters with CCI green Tags.
Sub-Sonics. Had to free float the barrel to do it .

 

[ArmedBear]

1/4"? I've seen a 10-shot group from a CZ that was about that.

But our club's 100 yard range is indoors.

Cheaper than .223? Probably not. You can reload match-grade .223. .17HMR, you're stuck with what they charge for factory ammo.

 

[Bendutro]

1/4"?

You shooting at 3/16" in gophers?

 

[rangerruck]

you actually have a lot of diff ammo choices, some are 17 grain, some are 20, some are hollow point, some are not. and some mfgrs will load their own proprietary powder loads in them. However, i do not prefer the 17hmr, as I consider it no cheaper than 545, 223, or 762.39. Now then, I do consider the 17mach 2 as a plinking round, and only giving up about 50 yds of trajectory to the hmr. a 100 yds zero with a hmr drops 3 inches at 150 and 7 inches at 200; these drops are 5 inches and 11 inches with the mach 2. Ammo with the mach 2 is at least half the cost, and if you buy ammo made by eley(the best) or use remmington mach 2, which is eley with a remmy label, it is hotter loaded anyway,at about 2300 fps. Eley ammo from our boys at
http://ammunitiontogo.com/
is only 4 bucks a box. Remmy can be had from local stores for about 5.80 a box. Last but not least, the mach 2 rifles can also fire the 17Aguila round, also called the pmc or hi standard. this is a little bit diff; it is a 20 grain solid, fmj boat tail bullet that leaves the muzzle at about 1900 fps, and is great for not blowing up your small game, or leaving gaping holes anywhere, especially if you like to eat meat, or preserve skins.
i do have a 17hmr, but I do not plink with it, it is reserved for hunting only.

 

[rangerruck]

as far as wind goes, it is a myth, most guys are comparing with centerfires on the mind. A 17 hmr is still going faster at 100 yds, than a 22 mag is at the muzzle. a 17 mach 2 is faster at 100 yds, than a 22lr is at the muzzle.
Plus they have higher b.c. than any 22 rimfire round, that means less wind drift right there.
http://www.varmintal.com/17wind.png
and this is with a speed of 2550, this is also an old article, most guys now, with the better made bullets and powder, after better made bbls, are getting closer to the magical 2700 fps, so that would be even less wind drift.
So then, will I tell you not to get a 17hmr? No. Would I recommend a mach 2 over the hmr for plinking ? By all means, yes. Is the hmr a good hunting round? for small stuff to 200 yds, yes, for fox to 150 yes, for coyotes out to 100 yessss.
But then again, the 5mm mag rimfire, firing a hot loaded 20 cal is about to come out again, and will revolutionize rimfire hunting as we know it. It will be like firing a downloaded 204 ruger. Smokin , baby!!!

 

[Matt304]

Rangeduck, can you tell me more about the 5mm Rem Mag? I remember reading that the ammo was hard to find anymore, but I didn't know it was getting ready to come back out.

Will any new rifles be chambered for it? Even then, until there is a decent selection of good ammo, I probably wouldn't be able to actually consider it. It does look interesting, though.

By the way, I have considered the HM2, but I would like just a tiny bit more oomph than it can provide.

Now, about the 17 Aguila able to be fired in an HM2 chamber, does it fireform itself to the chamber? Because I noticed that the shoulder is a few MM shorter than the HM2.

 

[rangerruck]

you are right, remember rimfires mostly headspace off of the rim, so the case neck just comes out a bit, in the 17 aggie. I have yet to notice a split neck from any of my mach 2 rifles. The 5mm ammo is allready out right now.http://ammunitiontogo.com/

http://www.varminter.com/
this is fine ammo, allready better, faster and heavier than the 17 hmr. with a 100 yds zero, it only drops 4-5 inches at 200 yds. it has almost 200 lbs of energy at 200 yds. All this with less wind drift than the 17 hmr.
Now then, this ammo is being sold by our boys at ammunitiontogo.com, for 17 bucks a box, and for a brick , it is 15 bucks a box. I believe this is 1 round that could actually come down in cost, once it gets rolling, as it uses no poly tip. Also it is made so that everyone with the old remmy 591 or 592 rifles, can fire it just fine.
Also this company has stated that if new rifles are mfgrd for it, they will make a cart , using a heavier bullet , going EVEN FASTER!!!! They are thinking 32 or 35 grainer, maybe even a 38, doing 2500 fps or better!!!! That is unbelievably sick man, for a rimfire. that is exactly like firing a downloaded 204 ruger.
the companies that are allready listed to come out with 5 mm stuff is;
Taurus, rossi, Thompson/Center , and .....



wait for it.....




just another second....




CZ and Savage!!!! I can just see Savage , using their new mod 25, with a heavy bbl, 24 or 26 inches, blasting away at pdogs from 300 yds away, or making a coyote do a backflip at 150 yds.
Or humping a cz 527, light carbine , light bbl, in the woods all day, stalking down the latest hogs. Just fabulous!!!!

 

[Matt304]

Where do I sign up?

No really, I am interested in this caliber. It sounds like it would be a hot lil bugger.

Now you say these companies are listed to come out with 5mm rifles, so is there any other info available on a time frame we could see a new rifle appear? I won't hold my breath, but if it's worth waiting, what the heck.

5mm on rabbit:

 

[rangerruck]

they are to come out any time, literally. I am expecting to see one, and buy it, the next time i go to a Houston area gunshow. I am really hoping that part of the reason that Savage made the new super short action mod 25, was also to have a new rifle for this cart. Right now, it is made for the 223, the 204, and the hornet, i believe. the 5 milly could easily fit in there as well...

 

[CBS220]

The .17HMR is great!

It shoots like a laser, and wind drift is nothing inside of reasonable ranges.

You have to respect the limitations of the cartridge- it's not .220 Swift or anything- but I don't think I have met a person yet who has shot a .17 HMR and not loved it (Unless they were paying for ammo)!

 

[22-rimfire]

CZ has announced that they are building a 5mm rifle at the NRA show. Others have announced that they are "going" to make one, but no mention of when they will come out other than "this year". To me that sounds like they will show up at next year's shot show since none (except CZ) have chosen to be very specific.

In 17HMR, I'd go with the CZ rifle myself. I don't have a Ruger 77 but everything I read is that they are hit or miss and still expensive. Pretty rifles though.

Weatherby is manufacturing their new Mark XXII as is Remington 547 in 17HMR. Guess it depends on your budget, but I would lean toward a higher end rifle (new) in hopes that it will shoot as good as you hope, but 1/4 MOA is a pretty high bar to set.

 

[Horsemany]

Of all the 17s I've seen shoot, the Ruger is always the least accurate. And I think the wind thing is overblown. You can learn to dope it. Most 17s will really like one brand of ammo for some reason. I think it will be easy to get 1/2 MOA at 100, but not 1/4". And you'll have to spend about 5 times as much to get a 22 that will shoot as well at 100 as the average 17.

I couldn't agree more. The wind problem is nonexistent since it is in the air for a fraction of the time other rimfires are. The accuracy is phenomenal across the brands(some are still better than others). I read somewhere that the HMR was SPANKING in certain rimfire events and was eventually banned and then got it's own class. I believe this was a Highroad member who organized rimfire competitions on his local range who wrote that. It really is like shooting a laser beam. No recoil and things instantly go POOF downrange.

 

[Shawnee]

Mucho interesting stuff here - esp. about the "new" 5mm.

To toss another log on the "wind" fire I'll offer that my old High School Physics teacher said that the faster a bullet sheds its' velocity, the more it is susceptible to the nasty tricks of the wind. Since he was a woodchuck hunter I trusted him in such matters. So, for fun, here is a look at calibers mentioned here. If anyone can add data for the 5mm that would be great.

.22 mag loses 36% by 100yds and 55% at 200 (30gr Vmax)

.17 hm2 loses 28% at 100yds and 46% at 200 (17gr Vmax)

.17 hmr loses 26% at 100yds and 45% at 200 (20gr Vmax)

.223 loses 15% at 100yds and 28% at 200 (40gr Vmax)


Just a "FWIW"

Anyone heard anything about new 5mm barrels for T/C Contender handguns?

 

[skinewmexico]

Too bad you can't rebarrel the Savage 25 yourself.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Wind:

Lookit guys....

as far as wind goes, it is a myth, most guys are comparing with centerfires on the mind.

Well yeah, of course we compare to centerfire, because the question is (I think), the best round for target shooting at 100. Fact is, if you're going for small groups, a centerfire such as a .223 is much much better at fighting the effects of the wind at 100 yards, than the .17 HMR. So it's not a myth - the comparison is valid, given the question asked.

But it's all relative. The wind actually does NOT affect the .17 HMR very much at 100. A little, yes - easily enough to screw up your 1 MOA group in a high wind, relative to a centerfire. So the wind affects a .17 much LESS than a .22lr or a .22magnum. In the rimfire world, wind drift is very minimal for the .17 hmr. In the ENTIRE world, grand scheme, it's not so minimal compared to centerfires. Regardless, the .17 is a hootenanny. It's just that if you want sub-MOA groups, they are a LOT easier to obtain at 50 yards (1/2" at 50) with .17 HMR, than they are at 100 yards, in a moderate to high wind. Believe me, I've tried this. They're still pretty darned good at 100, no doubt - small enough to hit a squirrel or such. But they open up well over 1".

Bottom line: YES you should get a hummer - good stuff. And YES, you should ALSO get a .17 rem, .17 rem fireball, .22 hornet, .218 bee, .20 calhoun, .204 ruger, .221 fireball, .222 rem, .223 rem, or bigger if your "thang" is itty bitty groups at 100 plus.

 

[24kshooter]

A CZ in a 221 Fireball or 22 Hornet for a Centerfire. You will have to reload but the performance level is high vs cost per shot.

 

[Shawnee]

One really nice target rifle that seems to get overlooked a lot is the Savage model 40 single-shot in .22 Hornet. Usually can find them NIB for $400, sometimes a few dollars less. Usually many on GunBroker. All of them have studs for a tripod and there is even a version of it with a thumbhole stock if you like that style. And the Hornet is a sweet cartridge.

http://www.savagearms.com/40Varmint.htm


Would also agree with Rangerruck about the .17 Mach2 if cost is the major factor for you.

Good Luck !