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Do manufacturers keep info from test fired rounds?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Apocalypse-Now, Jun 6, 2011.

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  1. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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    i mean for law enforcement.

    things like the rifling characteristics on the bullet, firing pin marks on the primer, etc.

    i didn't used to think so, but i've heard this question raised a few times recently....

    :confused:

    it doesn't seem feasible that they would record every round fired, but i read on some forum that states like NY require it. it was just a forum post, so who knows if it's true lol

    i don't believe it's true, but i'm just curious :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2011
  2. BADUNAME37

    BADUNAME37 Member

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    With computers and the ability to store data, I would be surprised if they did NOT maintain such records about every gun made.
     
  3. atblis

    atblis Member

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    I highly doubt it.
     
  4. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    That's actually quite a large bit of inventory to store. Despite tv, bullet-to-bullet comparisons are just that. The two rounds are put in a fixture, and then they are examined under magnification for similarities. Which is often as much art as science; HP rounds, or those upset by striking a hard surface might only have a few millimeters of contact surface showing.

    Can't just up and scan the rounds either--not without definitions for what magnification, what resolution of image, what lighting, etc. And, all that before a very reasonable defense objection to comparing physical evidence to an image of "evidence."

    Then, there's the firing pin nonsense--the resolution required to define uniqueness is not a common microscopy setting. Even if the manufacturers used electron microscopy on every FP, just what good would that image be, 50, 100, 1000 rounds later?

    We have significantly larger fish to fry.
     
  5. withdrawn34

    withdrawn34 Member.

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    Unlikely. The reason they include the round is so that LE can record the info. Otherwise, they'd just ask the manufacturer for the information. But then again, some localities believe in "creating" jobs by doing redundant work.

    Who knows.

    Bullet and shell casing forensics is a pseudoscience at best, anyway.
     
  6. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    No. The characteristics would be different between different types of rounds anyway. In many cases by the time we tested every potential cartridge on the market for that caliber of firearm, y'all would be buying used guns.
     
  7. Gary Wells

    Gary Wells Member

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    Why would a manufacturer do that?
    In the event of a crime, Law Enforcement (LE) sets the standards by which everything is judged by. LE would never take the word of a manufacturer in something like that.
    LE sets the cutting edge for forensics.
    And what you probably read is that NY is in the process of trying to pass a bill that in 2013 would require any firearm manufacturer within the state of NY to identify each and every firing pin with methods of individual traceability, and powder manufacturers to be "tagged" so that they are individually traceable also. Sound familiar?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2011
  8. Ramone

    Ramone Member

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  9. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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    ^^aha! so that NY thing i read is true! you do have submit a fire carteridge to the NY staties.

    yep, i also read it hasn't resulted in one conviction, yet cost the tax payers plenty.

    is NY the only state that enforces such stupidity? lol
     
  10. Ramone

    Ramone Member

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    I think Maryland (?) has a similar system- also no convictions, IIRC.
     
  11. PLRinmypocket

    PLRinmypocket Member

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    No.

    but some do collect the cases for the states that require it. But they do not keep it for their own records.
     
  12. FourTeeFive

    FourTeeFive Member

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    From a manufacturing standpoint, I doubt they would spend a penny to analyze or store any of the data. Every penny you don't spend goes to profit.
     
  13. toivo

    toivo Member

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    New York has the COBIS system -- every new handgun has to have one fired case sent in to the state police to be kept on file for ballistic match "just in case." Since all handguns have to be registered in this state, theoretically they could match casings found at a crime scene to a fired case on file, and that would lead them to the perp. There's so much wrong with this theory that I won't even go into here, but let's just say they've had the system for 10 years and spent about $10 million on it, but it hasn't solved a single crime. There have been two positive hits in investigations in 10 years, and neither one led to a conviction.

    EDIT TO ADD: Ramone, you posted while I was away from my computer. I think your $40 million estimate is kind of high: it cost them $4 million the first year, but some of that was start-up costs. Here's a local news story on it:

    http://www.cbs6albany.com/video/c/1143371293/local-news/932990434001/wrgb-localnews-wrgb
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2011
  14. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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    ^^oh, so they require the spent shell, not a fired bullet?
     
  15. toivo

    toivo Member

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    Yes, that's correct.

    Funny coincidence -- I was just at a Gander Mountain store asking about a Bersa Thunder .380 they have on sale. They had only one left and they couldn't sell it because the little baggie that the manufacturer puts the spent shell in was ripped. The state police won't accept them if they aren't sealed because then the "chain of evidence" has been broken. So now the pistol has to go to the state police to be fired again to get a new, "certified" spent case, and they can't sell the gun until they do this.

    And it still hasn't solved one crime in 10 years. Isn't bureaucracy wonderful?
     
  16. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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    ^^gotta love liberal nonsense lol


    so, when you buy a gun in NY, the dealer keeps the shells and sends them to the state police?
     
  17. toivo

    toivo Member

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    Yes. Only new handguns. Not used handguns or any kind of long gun.
     
  18. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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    ^^wow, that's bizarre lol. old news to you, new to me :)

    does that increase the price of new pistols in NY?
     
  19. Twiki357

    Twiki357 Member

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    Not sure, but I think california also requires the fired cartridge. If not, they probably will before long.
     
  20. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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    ^^probably require the fired bullet eventually too lol
     
  21. Twmaster

    Twmaster Member

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    Maryland also requires a sealed fired case. The State Police run a program called "Integrated Ballistics Identification System (IBIS)". Dealers are required to send the sealed fired case to MSP when sold.

    My new Walther came with a fired case. I used to live in the People's Republik of Maryland. I don't miss the place....
     
  22. toivo

    toivo Member

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    Maryland does -- I don't know if California does yet.

    Not usually Most of the handgun manufacturers now put the one spent case in the box for the states that require it. A few don't, and that means the dealer has to take the gun to the state police range and have them do it. Most dealers wait until they have a bunch that need to go over, so it keeps the buyers waiting. In those cases, the dealers probably tack a little extra onto the price for their trouble.

    The taxpayers are the ones who are really footing the bill for all this nonsense. One day somebody will figure out that the gun buyers who are jumping through all these legal hoops aren't the ones who are committing the crimes.

    EDIT TO ADD: I read somewhere that the Maryland State Police have spoken out against it. Theirs hasn't been any more successful than New York's, and they feel that they have better things to do with their time and budget.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2011
  23. withdrawn34

    withdrawn34 Member.

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    Some pistols just have that casing for ALL markets, since it can be cost prohibitive to do different packages for different markets. I know my XD came with a fired casing, even though FL doesn't have any ballistic "fingerprinting" requirement.
     
  24. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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    so, if you're in Maryland, you have to bring your new pistol to the police to have them fire a round and keep it? :eek: do they charge for that? :eek::eek:
     
  25. toivo

    toivo Member

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    No, I think paul34 has got it right: most manufacturers are doing it at the factory and putting the spent case in the box with the gun. Then if a state requires it, it's there. If not, the buyer of the gun can just throw it away. Or keep it as a souvenir of freedom... ;)

    In New York, the deal with going to the state police is only necessary if the manufacturer doesn't provide the spent case. It's the dealer who has to do it, not the buyer. It has to happen before the sale.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2011
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