Gingerbreadman
Member
Just like the title says, would a short barreled muzzle loader be a class III weapon?
Do SBR/ SBS rules apply for black powder guns?
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El Tejon
Member
You mean to ask aboutTitle II, not Class III.
Gingerbreadman
Member
What is title II?
El Tejon
Member
Title II covers all NFA weapons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons
In 1968 under the Safe Streets Act the NFA was recodified as Title II of the SSA (aka in the gun culture, the "Gun Control Act of 1968"). Title I weapons are non-NFA, Title II cover NFA weapons.
"Class 3" refers to a type of dealer and not a weapon. However, in the gun business you see this misnomer frequently. "Well, Eyes buys meye machinegun from a Class 3 dealer, therefore it is a Class 3 weapon" (I buy my machine guns from a Class 7 dealer, does that mean I have Class 7 weapons?). Heck, "Class 3" weapons is even on t-shirts, ads in SGN and on websites so its just become part of the lexicon.
Here at the High Road we strive to get it right. However, if you say "Class 3" weapon, people will understand what you mean.
In 1968 under the Safe Streets Act the NFA was recodified as Title II of the SSA (aka in the gun culture, the "Gun Control Act of 1968"). Title I weapons are non-NFA, Title II cover NFA weapons.
"Class 3" refers to a type of dealer and not a weapon. However, in the gun business you see this misnomer frequently. "Well, Eyes buys meye machinegun from a Class 3 dealer, therefore it is a Class 3 weapon" (I buy my machine guns from a Class 7 dealer, does that mean I have Class 7 weapons?
). Heck, "Class 3" weapons is even on t-shirts, ads in SGN and on websites so its just become part of the lexicon.Here at the High Road we strive to get it right. However, if you say "Class 3" weapon, people will understand what you mean.
Gingerbreadman
Member
Title II=gun.
Class III=dealer.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Class III=dealer.
Thanks for clearing that up.
musher
Member
??
If it's a muzzle loader, it's not a firearm under federal law afaik
Now that we all understand the difference between Title II and Class 3, I will address my pet peeve. "Black powder" does not mean "muzzle loader" does not mean "antique." Plus, because antiques and muzzle loaders are non-guns in the gun law, that does not mean they are not considered weapons under the rest of the criminal law. So:
ONE. Black powder is a propellant. Nowhere in the federal gun law or (AFAIK) any state or local law is a gun defined by the type of propellant it uses or can use.
TWO. Muzzle loading is a way of loading a firearm. Many muzzle loaders are made today and some can and do use smokeless powder. The federal and many state laws do address muzzle loaders, either directly or by saying something like "do not used fixed ammunition."
THREE. An antique firearm, under federal law, is any gun made prior to January 1, 1899. It is immaterial whether it was designed to use smokeless powder, black powder or whatever. Antique firearms may also include muzzle loaders, but the category also includes many firearms using conventional ammunition. One type or model of firearm may be both a modern arm and an antique (e.g., the U.S. Krag rifle), depending on when the particular example at issue was made.
FOUR. Some people seem to have the idea that a muzzle loader or percussion revolver can be carried concealed even if "modern" guns can't; that it is not armed robbery if an "antique" gun is used; that threatening someone with a percussion revolver cannot be punished since the gun is "not a gun."
Nonsense. Those laws don't address the type of gun, and often don't discuss guns at all, using the term "deadly weapon." Anyone who claims a percussion revolver is not a deadly weapon is an idiot and if he or his lawyer bases his defence on that claim he will go to jail.
Jim
ONE. Black powder is a propellant. Nowhere in the federal gun law or (AFAIK) any state or local law is a gun defined by the type of propellant it uses or can use.
TWO. Muzzle loading is a way of loading a firearm. Many muzzle loaders are made today and some can and do use smokeless powder. The federal and many state laws do address muzzle loaders, either directly or by saying something like "do not used fixed ammunition."
THREE. An antique firearm, under federal law, is any gun made prior to January 1, 1899. It is immaterial whether it was designed to use smokeless powder, black powder or whatever. Antique firearms may also include muzzle loaders, but the category also includes many firearms using conventional ammunition. One type or model of firearm may be both a modern arm and an antique (e.g., the U.S. Krag rifle), depending on when the particular example at issue was made.
FOUR. Some people seem to have the idea that a muzzle loader or percussion revolver can be carried concealed even if "modern" guns can't; that it is not armed robbery if an "antique" gun is used; that threatening someone with a percussion revolver cannot be punished since the gun is "not a gun."
Nonsense. Those laws don't address the type of gun, and often don't discuss guns at all, using the term "deadly weapon." Anyone who claims a percussion revolver is not a deadly weapon is an idiot and if he or his lawyer bases his defence on that claim he will go to jail.
Jim
(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
To answer your original question, an antique (muzzleloader) shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18" is still illegal if it has not had the tax payed on it. I am a black powder/muzzleloader, antique gun enthusiast. We has this question come up during a re-enactment. We checked with the BATF on this and they said a shotgun, muzzleloader or not, cannot have a barrel or barrels less than 18" without paying a $500.00 tax on it. So, we don't use them in our re-enactments.
Semper Fi!
Semper Fi!
El Tejon
Member
Ummm, why a $500.00 tax and why do they sell blunderbusses with under 18" barrels over the counter?
ScottsGT
Member
I thought the tax on title II was $200??
It is a $200.00 tax (I made a typo earlier) and is part of the Gun Control Act of 1934. It has to be payed anytime the gun changes ownership, and the gun must have the tax stamp afixed to it at all times.
The only blunderbusses you will see being sold 'over-the-counter' are the non-firing replicas made by Denix, and imported by Replica Weaponry, Inc. They cannot be fired and are only decorations.
At present, only one firing blunderbuss replica is available, aside from custom-made models. Navy Arms has a flintlock blunderbuss replica with an 18-1/2 barrel for around $500.00.
Semper Fi!
Shureshot, you are entirely incorrect. I asked the BATFE this very thing in the past - as long as the muzzleloader has not been designed or redesigned to use fixed ammunition, it is perfectly legal to do whatever you want. 2" barrel with a shoulder stock, foregrip, and laser sight? Sure! Doesn't matter, it's a muzzleloader, not a modern firearm.
For example, the LeMat would be a short-barreled shotgun if it fired cartridges instead of being a muzzleloader. (less than 18" barrel on the shotgun barrel, overall less than 26")
The 1855 Dragoon Pistol would be a short barreled rifle if it were a cartridge arm (less than 16" barrel with a shoulder stock, overall less than 26")
The Pedersoli Howdah pistol, if it fired cartridges instead of being a muzzleloader, would be a short-barreled shotgun as well, being that the barrels are less than 18" long, and the overall length is less than 26".
Also, in 1934, it was the National Firearms Act, not the Gun Control Act. The GCA was established in 1968, and established Federal Firearms Licenses (gun dealers), while the NFA is what encompasses short rifles, short shotguns, machineguns, silencers, and "any other weapons".
For example, the LeMat would be a short-barreled shotgun if it fired cartridges instead of being a muzzleloader. (less than 18" barrel on the shotgun barrel, overall less than 26")
The 1855 Dragoon Pistol would be a short barreled rifle if it were a cartridge arm (less than 16" barrel with a shoulder stock, overall less than 26")
The Pedersoli Howdah pistol, if it fired cartridges instead of being a muzzleloader, would be a short-barreled shotgun as well, being that the barrels are less than 18" long, and the overall length is less than 26".
Also, in 1934, it was the National Firearms Act, not the Gun Control Act. The GCA was established in 1968, and established Federal Firearms Licenses (gun dealers), while the NFA is what encompasses short rifles, short shotguns, machineguns, silencers, and "any other weapons".
EOD Guy
Member
Shureshot said:
Not true. Muzzleloaders are considered antiques under the National Firearms Act and are specifically excluded from coverage under the act.
The definition of an antique under the NFA is given in LAR-15's post above. Here is the part of the definition of a firearm in the NFA that excludes antiques from the act:
Also, there are many short barrel rifles and shotguns made before 1899 that BATF has removed from the National Firearms Act and which are unregulated. See Sec IIIA of the C&R List. Sec IIIA of the C&R List
There are also many short barrel rifles and shotguns made after 1898 that have been removed from the National Firearms Act and brought under control of the Gun Control Act. See Sec III of the C&R Listing. Sec III of the C&R List
I have a book (an identification guide from import division) and it is very clear that muzzle loaders, new or original, may be configured as SBS or SBR without loosing their antique status. This is because of their primitive ignition system. Thus, antique metallic cartrige guns may not be converted to an SBS or SBR configuration without tax payment and approval.
armoredman
Member
Would EMF be able to sell these, http://www.emf-company.com/black-powder-accessories.htm shoulder stocks specifically for these muzzle loading revolvers, without any caveats, if it were illegal at a Federal level?
There are some BP guns that are not muzzle loaders.
The key seems to be whether or not the firearm uses a fixed cartridge or not, not whether it uses BP.
IANAL, and this is a confusing issue, but AFAIK, it is not legally a firearm under FEDERAL law if it does not use a fixed cartridge.
I do know that Illinois does not care one bit if it uses a cartridge or not. If it goes bang, it is a firearm. Illinois also considers airguns over .18 caliber to be firearms as well as air guns with muzzle velocity exceeding 700 fps, as well as any air gun that uses anything other then BBs. At least that is what the law says.
The key seems to be whether or not the firearm uses a fixed cartridge or not, not whether it uses BP.
IANAL, and this is a confusing issue, but AFAIK, it is not legally a firearm under FEDERAL law if it does not use a fixed cartridge.
I do know that Illinois does not care one bit if it uses a cartridge or not. If it goes bang, it is a firearm. Illinois also considers airguns over .18 caliber to be firearms as well as air guns with muzzle velocity exceeding 700 fps, as well as any air gun that uses anything other then BBs. At least that is what the law says.
El Tejon
Member
Blunderbusses for sale, shipped to your door=>
http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket9.htm
http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/blunderbuss.htm
You will see functional blunderbusses for sale at a regular basis in Friendship or even Feast of the Hunter's Moon. Antique firearms are outside the scope of the NFA.
http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket9.htm
http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/blunderbuss.htm
You will see functional blunderbusses for sale at a regular basis in Friendship or even Feast of the Hunter's Moon. Antique firearms are outside the scope of the NFA.
AntiqueCollector
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True in many, many cases, but there is one important example of it being true: the federal Gun Free School Zone law, it uses the same definition of "firearm" as the GCA 68/etc., so antiques may be carried within that zone without a CC permit (which some states such as VT don't require and of course there are many open carry states that dopn't require a license).
EOD Guy
Member
One thing to remember is that the definitions for antique firearms are not the same in the NFA and the GCA. The NFA definition has the prohibition against the firearm using fixed cartridges. In the GCA definition, that prohibition only applies to reproductions of antique firearms, not the original firearms. For instance, under the GCA an original trapdoor Springfield would be an antique while an exact reporduction would not.
Fixed cartridge guns made in or before 1898 are exempt from the GCA
Only CERTAIN fixed cartridge guns made in or before 1898 are exempt from the NFA:
(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means ............................................................. and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
Just because a gun is an 'antique' under the GCA does NOT make it an 'antique' under the NFA
Only CERTAIN fixed cartridge guns made in or before 1898 are exempt from the NFA:
(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means ............................................................. and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
Just because a gun is an 'antique' under the GCA does NOT make it an 'antique' under the NFA
6_gunner
Member
This got me wondering... Is a cartridge-firing short-barreled shotgun exempt from the tax if it was cut down before 1898? If so, would you need some kind of proof that such a gun was modified before 1898?
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