Do SBR/ SBS rules apply for black powder guns?

[mp510]

This got me wondering... Is a cartridge-firing short-barreled shotgun exempt from the tax if it was cut down before 1898? If so, would you need some kind of proof that such a gun was modified before 1898?

The ATF has compiled two lists of firearms removed from the National Firearms Act. One is firearms removed from the NFA, and classified antique. The other is firearms removed from the NFA and classified as curios and relics. Thge lists are very specific- listing specific models and in some instances serial numbers/ serial number ranges.

 

[precisionshootist]

so is the key it being a muzzle loader?

So a SBS or SBR would be ok if it is muzzle loading?
what if it's muzzle loading with smokeless powder and modern primers for ignition?

 

[PTK]

That's fine, as long as it DOES NOT use cartridges.

 

[Shureshot]

From the number of posts, it is obvious that the laws are confusing to most people. In our case, we checked with the ATF before the re-enactment, as well as the Ga. Bureau of Investigation and both organizations said we could not use a muzzleloading shotgun with barrels of less than 18". Ga. even sent an officer down to inspect our arms to make sure it hadn't been cut down. An ATF agent came and took all the serial numbers down on the arms we were using, including the cannons.

We didn't argue. We did not cut down the shotgun. We only wanted to do it for the supply wagons. They routinely carried short-barreled shotguns to protect the cargo from bandits.

It was such a hassle that I will ever again ask any Law Enforcement Agency a question about firearms. I'll ask someone else.

 

[mp510]

Shureshot- see your email. I sent you some resources, that may help explain this to you.

 

[precisionshootist]

An ATF agent came and took all the serial numbers down on the arms we were using, including the cannons.

I'd say you handled it well!

I myself could not have been so diplomatic and likely would have told the ATF agent to get a warrant or get lost.

 

[El Tejon]

Serial numbers taken down by ATF??? None of my black powder weapons have serial numbers. How could they take down serial numbers if they do not exist? Are these reproductions?

This is right out of Glory (the silly scene with serial numbers on Enfields).

Wait, cannons? You had cannons but did not have to pay the DD tax? Did you wonder why the police told you that cannons exempt from the NFA (Gun Control Act of 1934), but short-barrelled antique shotguns are not?

 

[LAR-15]

Black powder muzzleloading cannon replicas of a type made before 1898?

A SBS or SBR has to fired a fixed cartridge (under the NFA- state definitions may vary)

 

[El Tejon]

LAR, yes, just pointing out the silliness of "ATF" agents worried about SBS on exempt weapons, but saying nothing of the "DD" for cannons.

I think the "serial numbers" was a give away as well.

 

[Davandron]

OK, sorry to make a zombie thread, but this is the only one I've found on THR and it was somewhat inconclusive.

I've been trying to answer the following question before writing to the ATF; "If a modern-design, percussion-firing black powder muzzle loading shotgun is less than 26 inches overall or has a barrel shorter than 18 inches, is it a title II firearm subject to taxation?"

Any confusion on this issue stems immediately from the difference in definitions between the National Firearms Act (26 USC 53) and the Gun Control Act (18 USC 44).

The NFA, which describes that certain firearms are subject to taxation, reads

26 USC Sec. 5845 (a): "...The term "firearm" shall not include an antique firearm..."
26 USC Sec. 5845 (g): "The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898)..." (source)

However the GCA, which describes things that are a federal crime to possess, reads

18 USC Sec. 921 (a-3): "The term "firearm" ... does not include an antique firearm."
18 USC Sec. 921 (a-16): "The term "antique firearm" means -
(A) any firearm ... manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica - (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition...." (source)

It's worth nothing that GCA is different because it was amended after Modern Muzzleloading introduced a modern design muzzle loading rifle and a challenge with the ATF was started. Before the GCA was changed the ATF published the following:

Discussion. The cited definitions make it clear that weapons actually manufactured in or before 1898 are not subject to regulation as firearms. Further, modern replicas of antique firearms using an antique form of ignition such as matchlock, flintlock, or percussion cap are also not subject to regulation as firearms.
However, muzzle loading weapons with “in line” firing mechanisms designed or redesigned to use modern conventional firearm primers do not meet the definition of antique firearms and are subject to regulation as a firearm. Primers are not an antique ignition system and are ammunition for firearms subject to regulation.
(source)

Then the GCA was amended, so that all muzzle loaders were exempted, however that still leaves the original NFA.

So what do you all think? I have a feeling that ATF would say a modern-design, black powder muzzle loading shotgun with a short barrel is subject to the registration, making and transfer taxation, however is not subject to the ownership and transport restrictions of the GCA.

(Side bar: to previous posters' questions/scenarios; the above says a replica can be as short as you like without worry)