Do we really need all of that performance??

[Ted100]

I think that the gun community has been sold on the idea that we need +p, +p+, etc for all of our beloved old time calibers. I've read so many articles that declare the 22 LR ineffective, the 25 ACP ineffective, the 32 ACP ineffective and the 380 is even kind of lite for personal defense. Heck, the 38 special will bounce off car windows according to Harry Callahan.

All that is a bunch of bunk in order to get us to spend more money on ammo, more money on guns, more money on reloading data when I think that there is over 100 years of historical records where those calibers were effective in their original form.

Of course you'll always find a situation where a 38 was ineffective (Miami). I would say that any pistol caliber may not have gotten the job done in some of those situations.

Buying more guns and ammo is always a great idea as long as we understand the truth of the situation.

What do ya'll think?

 

[Mike J]

If I recall correctly 9mm was what failed in the 1986 Miami shootout. .38 from a J frame was the fight ender even if it was at point blank range. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

9mm is my minimum for carry. I do not find it's recoil unpleasant even in small guns. I don't want a .32 or a .380 but if someone else does that is fine. I purchased a .380 for a family member to use due to their aversion to recoil. An older fellow I know wants a 32 revolver. Doesn't bother me a bit. We all have our preferences. Another reason I prefer to stick with 9mm, .40, & .45 is ammunition availability. I can usually find them or .38, .357. The other calibers with the possible exception of .380 are harder to come by & I don't reload.

 

[brutus51]

Never cared much for pushing the limits of a given caliber, that's why I CCW a 38 Super over a 9mm, says the old 1911 kinda guy.

 

[ECVMatt]

Because it's America! We always like faster, better, stronger.

All kidding aside, I like to really research what use I have for a particular handgun and then find a cartridge/platform combo that works the best. If I need more power then I would go up in caliber or cartridge rather than try to push something beyond its intended design. Of course I have an exception and that would be the .45 Colt in a Ruger type revolver. I have no problem pushing that one a bit.

 

[C-grunt]

In my experience 380 and below have major penetration issues in shootings. Not saying it wont work but the bullet is much more likely to be stopped by lighter bones and to have less penetration overall.

I've seen every "duty" caliber deflect off windshields. It usually has more to do with angle of the shot, but windshields are tough barriers.

 

[DR505]

I try to use various cartridges within the scope of their original specs. A .45 ACP is a good general SD cartridge and I like 1911s to launch them. If I need a hunting handgun I will grab my .41 or .44 magnum. I like .45 Colt, but if I need a 300+ grain bullet at 1200 fps, I will use a .454 Casull.

Why quickly beat up a firearm when it isn't needed?

 

[.455_Hunter]

If I recall correctly 9mm was what failed in the 1986 Miami shootout. .38 from a J frame was the fight ender even if it was at point blank range. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The suspects were finished-off with the six rounds of .38 +P LSWCHP from Mireles' S&W 686.

The shot which caused all of the controversy was a Winchester 115 gr Silvertip JHP friend from Dove's S&A 459- it expanded effectively but did not penetrate deep enough into the chest cavity for an instant stop after going through the arm first.

 

[Ted100]

I guess we could say that being shot in the arm with a 9mm isn't a fight ender? Based on 455's additional info?

It's amazing though that it went through his arm and into his chest. Wow!!

I wonder what caliber the FBI uses today as their official caliber? certainly not the 9mm I suspect

 

[CDW4ME]

What do ya'll think?

Unless limited by work clothes, I think 9mm minimum.
If you can dress as you choose, I think it is not difficult to conceal a pistol that holds 11 rounds like a Sig 365, Hellcat, Glock.
Regardless of location try to carry a pistol that would be preferred in hand to defend yourself, that which is most advantageous.

In regard to 38 special, I don't carry it or revolvers; 5-6 rounds versus 11+ is capacity deficient.
Nowhere would I rather defend myself with a snub than a 365 or Glock 19 and I carry accordingly, everywhere.

 

[brmiller]

I think that a cop I used to know put 6 rounds of 38 special center mass (later verified) in a perp and him still advance with a rather large knife towards the officer only to collapse right at his feet. He then asked that I build him a high-cap 45. To my knowledge it hasn't failed him yet.

If high(er) performance firearms and their ammo are a dislike, then maybe buy a 22 and be done with it? Just a suggestion of course.

 

[CraigC]

I disagree wholeheartedly. The .357Mag and .44Mag did not come from marketing. They were derived to satisfy real needs that were not met by existing cartridges. The only question is, do you actually have those needs that those cartridges satisfy?

 

[.455_Hunter]

I guess we could say that being shot in the arm with a 9mm isn't a fight ender? Based on 455's additional info?

It's amazing though that it went through his arm and into his chest. Wow!!

I wonder what caliber the FBI uses today as their official caliber? certainly not the 9mm I suspect

I am hardly an expert on this encounter, and just reporting a few undisputed facts. I suggest reviewing the many on-line sites that have in-depth analysis.

 

[Terry G]

Whatever you're comfortable with. My carry gun's are 9MM and .45 ACP. Not new polymer models, an all metal CZ P-01 and a CZ 97b. Expanding JHP in both. Nightstand gun is a Glock 21 with a light. Pretty simple and I'm not changing. I tried the polymer guns for carry and none pleased me enough to switch. The current fad seems to be the lightest, smallest 9 MM with the most ammunition. Guy's actually whip out micrometers to prove their gun is the smallest! Something to be said for the Sig 365 and the Hellcat, but really? How much bigger is a 9MM Compact and does it make that big a difference?

 

[jmr40]

If you're using a cartridge that penetrates 12-15" in gel that is a pretty good predictor that it will penetrate enough to reach a human's vital organs from most angles. If you're using FMJ, or if the bullet is impacting too slow to expand it could take some time for the person you hit to realize they are hit and to stop the fight. If it is impacting fast enough to expand, and still get the required penetration the fight stops sooner. If the bullet impacts faster than it was designed, it may not penetrate enough. That's when the rodeo starts.

You can make that happen with most any of the common cartridges from 38 Special to 44 magnum. Within reasonable limits caliber isn't important. The wild card is bullet construction.

In the Miami case the 115 gr 9mm load expanded too much to penetrate, the 158 gr 38 load did penetrate, but didn't expand. Had it been the 1st shots fired it may have had little effect, but the bad guy was pretty well done in before he was hit. That is just the shot that finished the job. He had non-survivable wounds before that shot was fired. Had a tougher 9mm bullet been used the fight may have been very short with no FBI injuries.

Over the years we have tried heavier bullets, faster bullets, and even heavy fast bullets with little regard to designing bullets that would perform at the expected impact speeds. I think that today ammo makers are doing a better job of matching the correct bullet for the task.

I sometimes carry a 380. But only when nothing else can be concealed. I'm perfectly comfortable with 9mm, as long as decent bullets are used. The best 124 gr loads come within 50 fps of what you'd get with a 4" 357 mag and 125 gr bullets. As long as the bullets are designed to stay together at that speed it works fine. I'd feel equally confident in anything bigger. But due to recoil concerns would probably use mid-level 44 mag loads or hot 44 Special loads if I were carrying a 44 mag revolver for human protection. The full power, heavy bullets in magnum revolvers are designed for big game, and usually at ranges farther than typical SD ranges.

 

[Speedo66]

An off duty brother officer was in a holdup, hardware store in lower Manhattan in the late 70's.

The perpetrators started herding everyone in the store towards the back, at that time there were a lot of robberies where they took everyone to the back of the store and killed them. He ducked behind a pillar and started firing with a 2" Colt Det. Spl. with .38Spl. +P HP. One shot hit a coiled garden hose, which captured the bullet, the other hit the thick solid glass front door, and slid off it, not breaking it. Nobody ever said Kenny was the best shot.

Both mutts rapidly fled, neither was hit. In this case, a more powerful round wouldn't have helped. Shot placement is everything.

 

[Charlie98]

In the Miami case the 115 gr 9mm load expanded too much to penetrate, the 158 gr 38 load did penetrate, but didn't expand. Had it been the 1st shots fired it may have had little effect, but the bad guy was pretty well done in before he was hit. That is just the shot that finished the job. He had non-survivable wounds before that shot was fired. Had a tougher 9mm bullet been used the fight may have been very short with no FBI injuries.

Over the years we have tried heavier bullets, faster bullets, and even heavy fast bullets with little regard to designing bullets that would perform at the expected impact speeds. I think that today ammo makers are doing a better job of matching the correct bullet for the task.

That ^^^ ... and that ^^^.

Chasing the tail as I call it. Ballistic gel is great at showing how much a bullet can (is likely to...) expand, but if that is your only criteria, it's probably not going to be a very good performer in the Real World. As JMR mentions, bullet design has come a long way, even since the '80's.

FWIW, there are a number of modifiers for the effectiveness of any bullet launched for self-defense... to include barriers, clothing, the possibility of armor, and the health disposition (read: narcotics) of the final recipient. If you knew the Magic Combination of handgun and cartridge combo for That Day, it would be a lot easier, but for those of us without a crystal ball, we will just have to make our selection using our best judgement.

 

[Skinny Pete]

If I recall correctly 9mm was what failed in the 1986 Miami shootout

Nope
It was poor shot placement

 

[DR505]

I guess we could say that being shot in the arm with a 9mm isn't a fight ender? Based on 455's additional info?

It's amazing though that it went through his arm and into his chest. Wow!!

I wonder what caliber the FBI uses today as their official caliber? certainly not the 9mm I suspect

FBI uses Hornady 135 grain 9mm +P Critical Duty as their issue ammo.

When new agents start their firearms training at Quantico they are handed Dove's pistol from the Miami shootout...it received a .223 from Platt that rendered it inoperable.

 

[DR505]

Nope
It was poor shot placement

If Platt was on an operating table with a team of surgeons ready to go, and then was shot exactly how Dove shot him he still would not have survived. Dove's shot was 100% lethal, it just didn't incapacitate Platt.

 

[brutus51]

I'm perfectly comfortable with 9mm, as long as decent bullets are used. The best 124 gr loads come within 50 fps of what you'd get with a 4" 357 mag and 125 gr bullets.

Huh, what loads are those?

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Depending on the hollow point design and caliber, some rounds perform better out of certain guns. So really, it's what works best out of your gun.

 

[357 Terms]

Huh, what loads are those?

He's been leaving that steaming pile in threads for years, never responds when called out on it.

 

[Skinny Pete]

If Platt was on an operating table with a team of surgeons ready to go, and then was shot exactly how Dove shot him he still would not have survived. Dove's shot was 100% lethal, it just didn't incapacitate Platt.

False

 

[DR505]

False

True...

At autopsy, Platt’s right lung was completely collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1300 ml of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Dr. Anderson believes that Platt’s first wound (right upper arm/chest wound B) was unsurvivable, and was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s death. https://holtz.org/Library/Social Science/History/Atomic Age/FBI Miami 1986 shootout.htm

 

[C-grunt]

Im a big 9mm fan but the only way a 124 grain 9mm approaches a 125 grain 357 is if you are using a hot 9mm load and a weaker 357.