Do you hand weigh your powder charge for each cartridge?

[R.W.Dale]

Except that we aren't using handguns to hit a 5" circle at 1000 yards!!

While that may be the norm for you it applies to very very few shooters. So bear that in mind.

Its like the guy with a Bugatti veyron harping on tire speed ratings in a thread about someone needing tires for their corolla.


I've not shot that far ill freely admit. However I'm wondering if you've actually tried a thrown set of loads against weighed on targets and if so how much was the variation

IME of the good mainstream metal powder measures can meter as accurately as a reloading grade scale can measure (remember these have a variation too of .1+)
With a consistent technique even with course powders.



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[MCMXI]

I've spoken with some accomplished benchrest shooters extensively and I was always surprised at just how little charge and powder despensing was stressed. They were all far more focused on things like case prep and bullet runout

But are we comparing apples to apples? Is the "typical" BR barrel as sensitive to changes in charge weight compared to the "typical" sporter weight or match barrel found on the vast majority of non BR rifles? Consider the amplitude and frequency of the vibaration modes of BR barrels compared to sporter weight barrels for instance. When the primer/powder ignites, a shock wave travels from the receiver to the muzzle and back again many times before the bullet exits the muzzle. It would seem to me that BR shooters have a much more rigid system, kind of like a universal receiver with a test barrel.

 

[R.W.Dale]

But are we comparing apples to apples? Is the "typical" BR barrel as sensitive to changes in charge weight compared to the "typical" sporter weight or match barrel found on the vast majority of non BR rifles? Consider the amplitude and frequency of the vibaration modes of BR barrels compared to sporter weight barrels for instance.

You know as well as I do that each barrel is its own individual. There no rules that say his only applies to barrels pointed at X




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[MCMXI]

You know as well as I do that each barrel is its own individual. There no rules that say his only applies to barrels pointed at X

But there are generalities too ... e.g. a sporter barrel will vibrate with a larger amplitude compared to a bull barrel given the same input (and same length).

Basically, I'm not convinced that what works for BR shooters necessarily works for the rest of us, so justifying a technique based on "this is what they do" is invalid (to me).

 

[R.W.Dale]

I want to expand on the point that we all assume that our scale is the final word on X weight always = X amount of gunpowder.

But I don't think many of have looked at the manufacturers specifications. These consumer grade scales are only so accurate and we're all assuming that the variation it shows in thrown charges in the powder measure. Well what if its the powder measure that's accurate and the scale is showing the variation or a combination of the two ebbing n flowing with individual charges?

In the end the only thing you can go by is the target and possibly your es over a chrony.



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[GLOOB]

I'm open to the idea, personally. Sure, let's assume a BR barrel reduces the effects of variation (in either weight and/or volume) of the charge.

I'm still wondering why you'd weigh every charge for your sporter rifle only on the assumption that it might, theoretically improve your accuracy and/or safety. (And OTOH, it might theoretically decrease your accuracy and/or safety; regarding safety, the humidity when you load will change the weight of the powder, so if you worked up your max load in a humid time of the year, then throw the same charge when it's dry.... you have the same weight of powder + moisture, but possibly significantly more powder).

Seems like you could be wasting a heck of a lot of time and effort for nothing.

This is my same line of thought with cleaning primer pockets. I'll gladly do it once I've verified that it's worth the trouble. I haven't done that, yet. I'm curious if the people who do it have.

Basically, I'm not convinced that what works for BR shooters necessarily works for the rest of us, so justifying a technique based on "this is what they do" is invalid (to me).

This is all very good and fine, but BR shooters are measuring group sizes and going with what works - for them. How are you coming to the decision that weighing charges is what works for you? Blessing my ammo with holy water might make it shoot straighter. But I'm not going to make it a habit until I've verified it.

 

[MCMXI]

But I don't think many of have looked at the manufacturers specifications. These consumer grade scales are only so accurate and we're all assuming that the variation it shows in thrown charges in the powder measure. Well what if its the powder measure that's accurate and the scale is showing the variation or a combination of the two ebbing n flowing with individual charges?

I use an RCBS ChargeMaster 1500 and "bracket" by weighing Lyman check weights before and after a loading session. Those weights have been checked on a lab grade Mettler balance and they're surprisingly accurate. I'm confident that I'm dispensing powder to within +/- 0.1gr. That's why I use 0.3gr increments during load development.

 

[R.W.Dale]

And that's just it GLOOB

Until you've tried both with your load and barrel you don't really have any experience to add on this subject only your preconceived notion.

I never could any measurable difference with any of my heavy target rifles and my sporter guns shoot as well or better than everyone else's.




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[MCMXI]

Until you've tried both with your load and barrel you don't really have any experience to add on this subject only your preconceived notion.

What I can say is that using the argument that weighing out powder is a waste of time because bench rest shooters don't do it is moronic. Also, until you shoot out past 500 yards you don't know how much of a difference you'll see either. Funny how every F-Class and PALMA shooter I know weighs out powder. Funny too that the AMU weighs out powder. Then again, none of us are shooting BR rifles.

 

[R.W.Dale]

What I can say is that using the argument that weighing out powder is a waste of time because bench rest shooters don't do it is moronic. Also, until you shoot out past 500 yards you don't know how much of a difference you'll see either.

At any point have I said that because benchresters do it it must be MO BETTA?

no I'm pretty sure I've been saying you'll have to try it and find out for yourself that you might be surprised.

Well 1858 have you tested it? If you haven't tried the other techniques how can you be so certain yours is superior?

Notice how everyone who sugessts throwing charges weighed them at one time and only came to that conclusion after finding out for themselves.




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[MCMXI]

Notice how everyone who sugessts throwing charges weighed them at one time and only came to that conclusion after finding out for themselves.

Also notice that none of them state that they're tying to shoot 0.5 MOA targets out to 1,000 yards using non BR rifles either.

The other thing is that weighing out powder isn't a big deal when you have a ChargeMaster. It's far more tedious to sort bullets by base to ogive and prep cases.

I have access to a universal receiver and test barrel and could shoot any number of rounds to compare weighed vs. volume but it'd be similar to a BR scenario so totally useless for me.

 

[R.W.Dale]

What I can say is that using the argument that weighing out powder is a waste of time because bench rest shooters don't do it is moronic. Also, until you shoot out past 500 yards you don't know how much of a difference you'll see either. Funny how every F-Class and PALMA shooter I know weighs out powder. Funny too that the AMU weighs out powder. Then again, none of us are shooting BR rifles.

Saying that F class guys don't do it so it must be bad is no less moronic.

And I'm still at a loss as to how f class guns apply to grand pappys 700 deer rifle in 270.

Again have YOU tested it?




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[MCMXI]

Saying that F class guys don't do it so it must be bad is no less moronic.

And I'm still at a loss as to how f class guns apply to grand pappys 700 deer rifle in 270.

Because if an 18lb rifle is sensitive to 0.5gr of powder then it's highly likely that an 8lb rifle would be even more sensitive.

I haven't tried charging rifle cases volumetrically (accept .223 Rem for 3-gun) and don't plan to. Like I said, the CM 1500 makes it easy and I'm happy with the results. I'm now annealing case mouths and am very happy with the results.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Also notice that none of them state that they're tying to shoot 0.5 MOA targets out to 1,000 yards using non BR rifles either.
e.

Get off your high 1000 yard horse and come down here where us mere peasant reloaders reside.

You spend all this time and effort trying to rub everyones nose in your 1000yd goodness and yet you still can't actually answer the question as to wither or not throwing or weighing charges makes a discernable difference in accuracy for you.

You know until a man tries to do something a different way and find out FOR HIMSELF wich works best he's only ever doing what someone else told him to do.






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[R.W.Dale]

Because if an 18lb rifle is sensitive to 0.5gr of powder then it's highly likely that an 8lb rifle would be even more sensitive.

.

Why on what EXPERIENCE do you base this ASSUMPTION? Its my experience that as a rifles accuracy potential decreases so does its sensitivity to changes in load variables. You will notice a .5moa poi shift a lot more on a gun shooting in the .3's with high mag optics than you ever will on a 1.5" rifle and a 9x scope.

And when did +-.01 for thrown charges become .5?


I can shoot 1.5" groups or less all the way out to 200 m using a thrown charge of varget from my ruger77 all weather deer rifle. If I weigh the charges no significant changes occour. But here's the important part. How big is a deers kill zone?

You have to see if it works for you before you can say it doesn't.




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[MCMXI]

and yet you still can't actually answer the question as to wither or not throwing or weighing charges makes a discernable difference in accuracy for you.

What I know
Based on load development +/- 0.3gr is not good enough for what I want to do.
I can hold +/- 0.1gr of powder with the CM 1500 which is good enough for what I want to do.
I can hold +/- 0.1gr dispensing pistol powders in the 5gr to 30gr range using a Redding 10X and BR-30.

What I don't know
I have no idea if I can dispense extruded rifle powders within +/- 0.1gr using readily available powder measures.

If a powder measure system exists that can dispense extruded powders to within +/- 0.1gr then that would be a good system for sure.

 

[MCMXI]

Q: How much charge weight deviation is acceptable in order to maintain accuracy/precision?
A: Depends on the cartridge, rifle and application.

Q: Can an electronic powder or scale measure/dispense powder within a range less than that which affects accuracy/precision?
A: Depends on the cartridge, rifle and application.

Q: Can a volumetric powder measure dispense powder within a range less than that which affects accuracy/precision?
A: Depends on the cartridge, rifle, application.

 

[mastiffhound]

Well this one really took off! After all of the reloading forums, books, and magazine articles I've come across it seems to me that guys working up loads for extreme accuracy almost always say " I started at 23.0 grains and worked my way up to 25.3. My best group was .67 inch at 100 yards with 24.9 grains of (insert powder name here) and the worst group was 2.25 inches with 23.2 grains".

It seems to me that going to all the trouble of working up the most accurate load for your rifle and then not loading precisely the same amount is counterproductive. As far as temp differences my house is set at 72 degrees all year round. The humidity doesn't change much either. Now outside temps change but that is something I have no control over. Maybe I am just too OCD. I do enjoy the other side and all of their findings and the knowledge that they have to share.

 

[GLOOB]

Notice how everyone who sugessts throwing charges weighed them at one time and only came to that conclusion after finding out for themselves.

No, that's not true. A lot of people are throwing charges because they HAVEN'T tested the difference. And a lot of people are weighing every charge who haven't tested the difference. That's the group I don't get. They do it because they feel like it's better, and it makes them warm and fuzzy. They state, "my measure varies up to X tenths with that powder, so I weigh each charge." I never hear "my groups opened up by X amount with a measure, so I weigh each charge."

Mastiff, even people who throw charges will often record the corresponding weight. It's like when people list an OAL. It doesn't mean every cartridge was exactly that length. It's just the working average. I have always worked up and recorded loads by weight, and I've never weighed out individual charges. W/e approx weight the measure is throwing gets recorded.

 

[DM~]

I've compared Lincoln log imr5010 to hs6. The margin for error on throws remains remarkably similar. Using the dump on downstroke I can cut n meter 5010 with less than a .2 extreme spread low to high

But even if it was three times greater the ovrall variation is still a great deal larger with the smooth metering pistol charges than the course rifle rifle.

Fwiw unique meters like crap amongst handgun powders. Especially at very low volumes. H4831 is cake especially the SC variety. You should try metering vs weighed on targets ill wager if you tested blind you'd be astonished at the lack of difference.

You guys missed in my post that i load many of my hunting rifle rounds near max, and i've weighed long stick powders out of all of the several measures that i own. None keep difficult powders close enough for me to trust them with near max loads.

I throw a LIGHT charge and then trickle to get it where i wanr it.

DM

 

[Kachok]

Never seen the need to, my metered hunting loads shoot tighter then I can even off the bench. I do check every once and a while to make sure everything is within a fraction of a grain, but not every one. I wish I had all the extra time to do that LOL

 

[James2]

Do you hand weigh your powder charge for each cartridge?

NO!

I use a Lyman 55 powder measure and set it up with the scale. Once I get it throwing the correct weight I just load and check the weight about every 15 rounds.

There is room for discussion on whether loading by volume is more accurate than loading by weight. I have never done any serious studies on this myself, but will say that dropping powder with a powder measure is a volume measurement, and I have been very happy with the performance of my ammo.

This question has been kicked around before and you can probably find the discussion.

 

[Jaxondog]

I don't know if it is my OCD or not but I weigh each charge by hand. I just don't trust those powder discs or other methods that I'm not aware of. Every charge is exactly the same, it comforts me for some reason. Why reload if your not going to make every round as precise as possible? I know the cost factor, if I wanted to buy premium ammo it would cost me double to quadruple of what my reloading costs are. It takes longer but I feel more confident in my ammunition than anything I could buy from a "factory" reloading company like Ultramax or others.

So, how do you charge your cases?

I use a digital scale only when I am after accuracy. Most of the time's it is RCBS ,Lyman or Lee pro Auto Disc. Mostly RCBS. No beam scale's for me.lol

 

[DM~]

Never seen the need to, my metered hunting loads shoot tighter then I can even off the bench. I do check every once and a while to make sure everything is within a fraction of a grain, but not every one. I wish I had all the extra time to do that LOL

You joined in 2010 and already have over 3100 post?? I'd say you DO have the time to do that! lol

DM

 

[Pete D.]

Weighing

Do I hand weigh my powder charges? NO....not for any gun. Once I have established that the measure that I am using is accurate to +/- one percent or so, I don't worry about it again until I change powder lots.

What is the big hurry to reload as quickly as possible? S

Generally, it is not a matter of speed per se, it is more a matter of volume. When I am loading, 10k shot shells, 4k-5k .45ACP, and a few thousand of .223s and .30-06 per year, I am darn sure not going to weigh every charge. That, plus....my hobby is the shooting, not the reloading.
Pete