"Do you have firearms in the vehicle?"

[Risasi]

Wow

I stopped in here to dig up some info on a new SP-101 I got. I see some things don't change.

SSN Vet. I'm dead to sin, holding that status I am not under "the Law", which is for an entirely different race, and that law was abolished 2000 years ago. There is no need to bring that set of codebooks to the table when they hold no juristiction here.

As for the subject at hand I can speak from experience. I told the officer I was carrying. For my honesty I received grief. Deservedly so. I did commit a minor traffic infraction. However I was not arrested. Even though I carried without a municipal permit, with a firearm whose serial number came back stolen (not my gun, different caliber), in a vehicle the same make as one just reported stolen. I would not do the same thing again.

To me this is a moot point. I make a point of not getting pulled over. I also make a point of knowing the law now (which varied based upon region). I also make a point of not lying to an officer. However because I know what my rights I am not always willing to kowtow to all LEO. Frankly circumstances be damned, principle is what's important. I'm single, I have money, and if someone pisses me off for not doing "the right thing", well we'll cross that bridge when we get there. If we get there. Seriously though guys, many of you worry too much. I haven't been pulled over in 10 years.
Except for two years ago by an Iowa cop running a fishing expedition for out of state vehicles carrying passengers without a proper seatbelt in use.
And if I was getting pulled over that much around my neck of the woods I'd either move (not practicle), or do something about it. Start a blog, record everything. Report to your local news, and other local groups. If it's really that bad in your area do something about it.

I also make a point of getting to know LEO in my area. Most are not unreasonable. A few are nasty. Some are just burned out and I don't blame them. And I suppose some are on the take, however I have no personal experience with that. So I will not speak out regarding JBT's or dirty cops or whatever other mudslinging goes on.

Most people here just need to chill out and de-escalate. I'm not out to change the world, but to live a peaceful life if I can.

 

[TC-TX]

Folks -- it is a Simple Question:

We are speaking of Lying vs. Telling The Truth

I, personally, prefer to take the High Road in these situations (pun intended... ).

I, personally, do not see the LEO as paranoid, just looking to assess the situation, as He/She is the one at the disadvantage in Traffic Stops and the like. This has been My experience.

I, personally, do not see asking nor answering questions not germain to the situation as pertinant to the Original question posed in this thread. Questions about concealed weapons are usually germain to a traffic-stop situation and, IMO, an honest answer is incumbant upon all license holders.

I, personally, do not think lying by either party is acceptable.

I, personally, have never been treated with anything other than respect in regard to my CHL. I believe this is the way it should be.

I am not judging anyone here - I have never walked in your shoes, nor is it my job to judge anyone. If I came off as otherwise, I apologize.

I was merely trying to point out that I believe CCW/CHL holders are and should be held to a higher standard. I believe an Honest Approach in regard to interaction with anyone - especially LE - is a Good Policy. I believe there is enough bad information and mis-information by those wanting to do away with RKBA already. I hate to see CCW/CHL holders feed that frenzy by supporting questionable ethics and communication practices.

I believe and support the tenet that RKBA is an inalienable right given to all by our Creator. I am also aware that we live (by choice) in a Nation governed by laws. I choose to support the laws. If I disagree with the law, I push for change. I do not intentionally break the law without regard for the consequences... When I speed I risk a ticket.

In all of these points YMMV... I respect that.

Now - I have got to get to the airport to catch a plane.

Have a great Day all... Peace.

 

[bowline]

Glummer

Politely would be easy; the problem is SAFELY. For some reason our LEO friends are not offering much helpful advice in that direction.

Noticed that myself. Apparently, even when it is legal, appropriate, and called for, you're on your own...

TC-TX

We are speaking of Lying vs. Telling The Truth

Ah... no. You are speaking of that. The rest of us are talking about something else.

This thread hasn't been very productive - but I got a new sig line out of it!

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

To get back on topic, can we reach a consensus on how to politely tell an officer to mind his own business?

"I prefer not to discuss the contents of my vehicle, officer, as I value my privacy, other than to say that with regard to everything in my car I am in full compliance with the law. Now, unless there's something else I can help you with, I'd like to be on my way."

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Now, if a group of ccw type would pick a city like say Columbus and start calling in "Man with a Gun" complaints, like say 40 or 50 of them all at the same time, well enough to tie up leos all over the city and maybe block some traffic for some politicians on their way home on a Friday night, perhaps the law makers would wise up.

Of course, like the open carry parades, everything to be legal except no prior notification.

A few Fridays of this during the legislative session and one or two things might happen.

1) Leo would chill a little about ccw in the car carry.
2) The public would become aware that man with a gun is not a crime.
3) Politicians would cure the stupid law.

CCW, you, sir, are a genius.

 

[kmca]

I believe this thread started out asking you should do to answer the question "do you have a firearm in the car?" Nothing was mentioned about CCW. Are there possibly 2 answers? One answer for a CCW/armed driver and another for a gun unloaded and locked in the trunk of your car?

Call me paranoid if you wish but since I am human, I could make a mistake...say leave a round in a magazine. Where I live loaded magazine = loaded gun.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Let me reframe the question. In order to exercise my right to travel within my own state, how many of my other rights must I surrender? At the very least, according to the police-state apologists, I must give up my right to arms, my freedom from unreasonable searches, and my right against self-incrimination.

I know. I know. That was a trick question. The state doesn’t recognize my right to travel either.

~G. Fink

 

[Jim Diver]

"I prefer not to discuss the contents of my vehicle, officer, as I value my privacy, other than to say that with regard to everything in my car I am in full compliance with the law. Now, unless there's something else I can help you with, I'd like to be on my way."

Nice, but try to remember that when you get an adrenalin dump... Remember, many people are very fearful when they get pulled over. You KNOW it's going to be confrontational. After all, who here has been pulled over just to be complemented on driving safely? Unless you called them, every contact with police needs to be done carefuly.

Back to lying to the police,

other than to say that with regard to everything in my car I am in full compliance with the law.

I do not advise this statement. It is bound to be a lie. These days, just waking up in the morning can be considered illegal. With the literally TONS of pounds of laws and regulations passed each year, you ARE breaking some law by just breathing.

 

[308win]

Unless you called them, every contact with police needs to be done carefuly.

Even if you did call them you need to be vewry vewry careful.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Nice, but try to remember that when you get an adrenalin dump.

You have my permission to have that whole statement printed on a card you can affix to your sun visor. When the policeman asks you the question, you can look up at your visor and read it to him. If he asks if you have anything to hide, read it to him again, word for word.

As someone here once suggested, as soon as you come to a stop, call your home phone and have the answering machine record the entire conversation. I'm sure that if this trend continues, someone will market a video camera positioned to secretly record the entire interaction, and then automatically upload it as a digital file and sent to your email address. Sort of like a technology cold war between the people and the police.

 

[AJAX22]

Alright guys, the DOJ finnally got back to me

This is in response to your questions about Penal Code section 12031

Is it ok to transport a loaded magazine in conjunction with a unloaded firearm. provided that the magazine is not attached to the firearm at the time of transport.

Likewise is it alright to transport a full speedloader in conjunction with a revolver

Is it ok to keep a rifle in the trunk of your car along with a seperate locked container that contains a loaded magazine?


Do stripper clips constitute a loaded magazine? as the clip does not at any time attach to the rifle during function. (the specific example would be that of the SKS)

You have cited the correct penal code section that addresses the issues your questions raise. However, I am not an attorney and cannot give legal advice. Answers to your questions constitute legal advice. It is up to the police officer whom you encounter to make a determination if the way your are transporting your firearms and/or ammunition is in compliance with this penal code section. The specifics of your questions are not addressed in the law; I see no obvious conflict but your questions should be asked of the local law enforcement agency who might be enforcing the law. You might speak to the Watch Commander of a shift, or if the agency has a Gun Unit, you could ask one of the officers who works there and would be more familiar with the firearm enforcement. Or, if there is a rangemaster at the law enforcement agency, he/she could give you their opinion. Another avenue you could explore is the City Attorney's Office or County District Attorney's Office as it would be up to them as to when to prosecute a violation of 12031.

I am sorry to be so ambiguous about an answer; however, a definitive answer from me would not protect you from consequences if a law enforcement officers believes you have violated the law.

Sally



Sally Carney, Field Representative
Firearms Division
(916) 263-4887

So the agency in charge of determining legality and applicability of laws can't tell me one way or another, and its up to the individual law enforcement officer to determine if I am in compliance with the law.

His bosses, bosses, bosses, boss doesn't know if its illigal or not, but a lowly beat cop fresh out of the accadamy gets to determine my future for the next year or so while we work out our differences in court.

It seems to me like there is a lot of leeway for injustice to occur here, allowing the subjective opinion of whatever individual pulls me over that day in conjunction with a politically motivated DA to set things in motion which could deprive me of my freedom, my rights, or at minimum my finances.

I do however stand corrected on my previous statement, I said that I knew for a FACT that it was illigal to transport a loaded magazine in conjunction with an empty gun. This statement was wrong.

No one knows if its illigal or not, It could be illigal, or it could be ok, depending on the whim of the officer. for me this ambiguity of the law is even more frightening.

so my revised statment is; I know for a FACT that carying a loaded magazine in conjunction with a unloaded gun in California, may be construed as illigal by the officer at the scene, it is totally up to his discression. if you go to trial, he will be paid to attend, wheras you will have to shell out money hand over fist. So Roll the dice if you feel like it.

I for one don't much care for playing russian roulette with my future, and as such, when I get asked the question, I'm answering "No". If and when I move somewhere where the law is clear, and infractions of the law are not strictly subjective, I look forward to answering honestly. Untill that day, my "No" will have to suffice.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

For me this ambiguity of the law is even more frightening.

Ambiguity in the law is the goal of every would-be tyrant. This way you never know if you are in complience. It is the opposite of the rule of law. Instead, we are under the rule of tens of thousands of little tyrants with badges.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. AJAX22,

It might be fun to print up a bunch of those letters and include one each to all the Publick Affairs type in each police dept through which you travel. You know, copy of the letter (which is your authorization) and a request for specific written response from each watch commander.

Then you could take all the results and stastically like do a bell curve and then send all the responses along with you stastical analysis back to the babe at doj and cure her of her ambiguity.

Then perhaps a letter to your state representative and/or senator with copies and annotations and ask that some RULE of law be legislated.

Maybe not.

emails would be cheaper, but institutions of the state lots of time don't have the will nor the ability to use computers with the public. Viruses and like that.

 

[SSN Vet]

sorry if I was "blunt"

sorry if I was "blunt".....

but I get a little exasperated at how loosely people recommend telling "bold faced lies" to those given legitimate authority in our society. (and yes I know that often that authority is abused).

We seem to be transitioning into a society where telling lies as a matter of routine, whether to cover our rear ends or just out of expediency.

Risasi....

Believe me, I'm not one to push off O.T. dietary regs. or customs on anybody, nor am I some prudish tea totaller who scowls at anyone having fun. But if we as a society can't find any common moral ground (I'd suggest the 10 commandments, as most of our founding fathers did, even the non-believers) then we've pretty well ceased to be a society.

Is any of this applicable to the question that started the thread?

The thread was about what to say to a police officer who inquires about guns in your car. Many (if not most) of the replies suggested lying as a legitimate response.

I suggest that people should not take lying lightly....

you might just become a liar!

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I get a little exasperated at how loosely people recommend telling "bold faced lies" to those given legitimate authority in our society.

As a society transforms itself into a police state, routine deception when dealing with the authorities is a common response of the people laboring under it. It will only get worse as the transformation progresses.

Many (if not most) of the replies suggested lying as a legitimate response.

Actually, I joined the discussion relatively late, and I didn't read the earlier posts. Could you quote someone who suggested that one should lie to a police officer?

 

[cropcirclewalker]

but I get a little exasperated at how loosely people recommend telling "bold faced lies" to those given legitimate authority in our society. (and yes I know that often that authority is abused).

We seem to be transitioning into a society where telling lies as a matter of routine, whether to cover our rear ends or just out of expediency.

Risasi....

Believe me, I'm not one to push off O.T. dietary regs. or customs on anybody, nor am I some prudish tea totaller who scowls at anyone having fun. But if we as a society can't find any common moral ground (I'd suggest the 10 commandments, as most of our founding fathers did, even the non-believers) then we've pretty well ceased to be a society.

Is any of this applicable to the question that started the thread?

I think I am with Mr. SSN Vet here, well, mostly.

The ten commandments are a good rule of thumb by which to live. I try to.

Only trouble is, the founders used other stuff too. If there is a parallel in the big 10 (commandments) to the fifth amendment I am unaware.

If you lie to a cop you are a fool.

If you tell the truth to a cop you are a fool.

Then we got the third option, which authoritarians just can't handle.

If you say nothing to a cop you are mathamatically ahead.

We have poster after poster here tell us about admitting to be carrying a firearm and then getting hooked up, hauled in or having their vehicle tossed.

Odds are if you tell the truth, your car gets tossed.

If we had any poster here telling us that they lied and got their vehicle tossed, I cannot remember, but regardless, lying is wrong. Especially if you lie to a cop.

If wifey asks, "Does this dress make me look fat?" You all know how to answer regardless of the truth. Not the same when answering a cop.

But mathamatically, the odds are in favor of just asserting your right to remain silent. If leo searches your car and finds the piece you are going to get hassled. Whether you told him or not.

If you lied and he searched and found the piece, you are in trouble.
If you told the truth and he searched and found the piece, you are in trouble.


If you said nothing and he searched and found the piece, you are in trouble too, but not for lying. Now leo has to justify the search with probable cause. Not from some slip of the lip outa you.

Please out there.......Just keep your trap shut.

 

[Old Dog]

cropcirclewalker stated

We have poster after poster here tell us about admitting to be carrying a firearm and then getting hooked up, hauled in or having their vehicle tossed.

WRONG!
Read the whole thread again.

AJAX22, in post #21, alludes to his firearms being placed "in the dirt" but does not elaborate on the specific instance of his alleged traffic stop nor offer any salient details.

Bruss01, in post #30, speaks of an attorney acquaintance, his "firearms instructor" who allegedly was held at gunpoint by some cops during a stop subsequent to 'fessing up in the affirmative to "The Question."

MBane666 speaks of a horrific stop -- when no gun was in the car nor admitted to -- by an officer who was even chastised by his back-ups for his bad attitude to Mr. Bane.

JimDiver, in post #169, talks about all the nasty LEOs in San Jose, California, yet amazingly enough, does not bother to corroborate his negative attitude about his homegrown LEOs with ANY evidence, not even anecdotal, such as Bruss01 at least offered forth.

Bowline in post #181, another NO GUN traffic stop, speaks of 40 minutes of having to perform FSTs - again, NO GUN.

CCW, it's basically you and AJAX22 here trying to prolong the agony.

NINE pages, and no first hand accounts of being handcuffed (other than yours), having one's vehicle tossed, or being "hauled away" to jail.

I submit this is an imaginary problem and some of you are simply trying to take offense -- and project infringement upon your rights -- where there in fact, exists none.

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

I have been pulled over twice while lawfully carrying...

Both times my weapon was taken from me. Both times I told the officer I was carrying, and what would he like to do. Once, I was wearing the gun, the other time it was in the glove box. When I was wearing the gun, I had to get out of the car, place my hands on the roof, and I allowed the officer to take my Glock 23 for the duration of the stop. The State Trooper did his job(running my imfo), wrote my ticket for the infraction(registration out of date), then returned my pistol. I told him I was leery of situations like this, and he said I shouldn't be,"It is your RIGHT to CARRY a FIREARM, have a nice day". I even asked them about the side arms they were carrying, and they said due to climate, I should stay with the Glock. Got my licenses back, Reloaded my 23 RIGHT THERE IN THE ROAD, Reholstered, and went on about my merry way. The time it was in the glove box, I asked what the Officer(Sherrif) wanted to do and he asked for the firearm, which was in a holster. I handed it to him holster and all(using two fingers) while keeping the other hand on the wheel. He dropped the mag and placed it on my trunk, then unloaded the chamber and placed the round there also. Did his job(ran my imfo), gave me my ticket(for the same thing, registration:banghead: ) and told me,"Please don't reload your weapon until I leave, but whatever.
I took the firearm up off the trunk, loaded the magazine, racked a round into the chamber, the reloaded the single round to the magazine and placed the holster under my shirt before getting back into the car. Again, this was in the MIDDLE OF THE ROAD(well on the side but you get what I mean). Both times the Officers where not rude, their demeanor did not change after I presented my I.D., but both wanted to know if the gun was chambered and it's location, and both wanted my gun off of me... To clarify, when I said treated like a criminal in my previous post, I meant the Officer will probably take your weapon, but you won't get hassled for lying to The Wrong Officer....

PS- I did not have to pay the ticket for registration when the weapon was in my glove box as it was at home, just not affixed to the car and the D.A was a hottie. All in all, no problem. Still 2 Many Choices!?

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. Old Dog, I am touched that you would go through all those posts.

I won't, don't have time nor inclination.

you forgot

Mr. Risasi in post 201, but that's as far as I will go back.

So out of all those posts we have at least seven of us. I only have 3 1/2 pages. (it is possible to configure the posts per page)

Since you are into stastics, why don't you evaluate actually how many posters there have been on this string. I know I have made a bunch, Mr. Hawkeye, Mr. AJAX22, Mr. Proficient Rifleguy, Mr. Glummer, Mr. TC-TX, (sorry if I left out a prolific poster) but even you are in for 3 unless I forgot one. Mr. Eatman has at least 2 and he shouldn't count being a mod.

So, add it up. Maybe 30 posters in this string and seven of them have been hassled.

I reiterate, how many lied "no" and then got tossed? I don't remember any.

 

[Old Dog]

CCW,
This statement

As for the subject at hand I can speak from experience. I told the officer I was carrying. For my honesty I received grief. Deservedly so. I did commit a minor traffic infraction. However I was not arrested. Even though I carried without a municipal permit, with a firearm whose serial number came back stolen (not my gun, different caliber), in a vehicle the same make as one just reported stolen.

supports whatever your major thesis is?

I won't, don't have time nor inclination.

I'm not surprised.

Save you the trouble, though -- ZERO posts relating personal experiences of being handcuffed, having vehicles tossed or being taken to jail as a result of saying, "Yes" when asked by a LEO during a routine traffic stop if there were firearms in the vehicle.

Maybe 30 posters in this string and seven of them have been hassled.

Really, though, you should count again, and then also note that of the few who claim to have been hassled, most of them did not have firearms in their vehicles.

I reiterate, how many lied "no" and then got tossed? I don't remember any.

Gee, this must mean that one should lie if asked by a cop during a routine traffic stop whether one has firearms in the vehicle. God forbid one should be "hassled" in any way shape or form by being asked to show the firearms to the cop or produce one's CPL. Your use of, or should I say, your lack of, logic, escapes me.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Yes, God forbid. I believe that is exactly our point here on the pro-rights side of this debate.

~G. Fink

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

ZERO posts relating personal experiences of being handcuffed, having vehicles tossed or being taken to jail as a result of saying, "Yes" when asked by a LEO during a routine traffic stop if there were firearms in the vehicle.

This doesn't fit your criteria exactly, though I doubt what happened would be any different if he actually had guns in his car at the time, and told the officer so. By the way, even admitting you are carrying firearms to a LEO in CA means they can pull them out to verify they are unloaded.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=35281&page=5

Contrary to popular belief, a cop cannot just toss your car. If your car is tossed, you have done something very wrong.

Boy do you live in la-la land. I was pulled over for speeding once on the I-5. I was going 10 over the speed limit. At the time I was going down the grapevine and didn't want to ride my brakes all the way.

Anyways was pulled over and given a ticket. I didn't argue or put up any protest as everyone going down that same mountain was going faster than the speed limit. Figured it was my time to get the ticket. No biggie, figured it was okay as I have spotless record.

Anyways to make a long story short. I was asked to step out of the car and searched. Handcuffed and made to sit by the side while the Chipper searched my car. Do you know what the Chiper used as PC.....I was wearing a black T-shirt with a small outline of a Deer on the right side of the my chest with a small logo that said "Browning...a tradition of excellence".

Apparently wearing a gun T-shirt is enough to get your car searched.

He isn't the only person in California that I've heard of getting a vehicle searched on PC of gun clothing or bumper stickers, though I'm not saying that it is common.

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Creeping Incrementalism,

Doing the Right Thing is Always Right... Doing the Wrong Thing is Always Wrong. Whether it is You or Them...

Wrong behavior on another's part does not give license for the same on yours.

Doing the wrong thing (lying) is not always wrong if it's for a good cause. Cops (hopefully) only lie for a good cause, right? By your definition, the Revolution was illegal, and therefore wrong. Saying "comparing apples to manhole covers" doesn't work when the situations are analgous. They are analagous because we are talking about lieing, or breaking a law, in certain situations, for the greater good. And an honest citizen not being humiliated, and not having his firearms seized, at no danger to the police, increases the greater good.

By the way, you come across as incredibly arrogant and self-righteous when you ungramatically use capital letters.

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Simple Question

"Sure -- just like in your car".

 

[TC-TX]

Sorry Creeping, but Honest Citizens do NOT lie...

Lying Citizens are not honest...

You can not have it both ways, no matter how much you try to rationalize it...



And sorry if capitalization offends you...