Do you owe a criminal assailant a fair fight?

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Assuming you are not the agressor, is it fair you are being assaulted in the first place?

Don't wait - thinking about the "fairness" question - until it's too late to begin to defend yourself.

Woody
 
The question deals with using deadly force against non-deadly...
Not so. The OP states, "bare handed". If you want to argue the lethalness of bare handed combat, we can introduce Bruce Lee's zombie to the thread. Make no mistake about the lethal potential of bare handed combatants.
 
That's just it, though, you CAN make a mistake. If you shoot an unarmed man the burden will be on you to show some reason why his fists were deadly. Your belief must be objectively reasonable. If you go around shooting guys who throw punches at you it's a ticket to prison.

Let me put it this way. The fact that SOME punches can be deadly in SOME situations does not mean the particular punch you're facing is deadly. Theoretically deadly force doesn't really cut it. Now if you're getting punched with brass knuckles by some guy with forearms wider than your leg and he won't stop, that's another matter. But if the fellow throwing the punch is average size and has no weapon, you'd better be dripping blood from multiple open wounds when the cops get there. Maybe that isn't fair but it's real life.
 
Is a policeman required to take a beating before he can use deadly force?

If a thug sucker punches a police officer while a ticket is being written, can the police officer draw his weapon and shoot the suspect? Would it be reasonable for him to assume he was not in danger of death or serious injury??

In Delaware the standard is do you fear for your life or great bodily harm or harm to others, then lethal force is justified.
 
The law does allow for the use of a firearm when there is a disparity of force. If you're a 98 lb. female being attacked by an unarmed 6'3", 250 lb male you'd be justified in using a gun.
 
If you shoot an unarmed man the burden will be on you to show some reason why his fists were deadly
No, you don't have to show that his fists were deadly. You have to show that it's a reasonable belief that his fists presented a threat of serious bodily harm or death.

Want that proof?

Table 2.9
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html

Weapons 2000 2001 1 2002 2003 2004
Total 13,230 14,061 14,263 14,465 14,121
Total firearms: 8,661 8,890 9,528 9,659 9,326
Handguns 6,778 6,931 7,294 7,745 7,265
Rifles 411 386 488 392 393
Shotguns 485 511 486 454 507
Other guns 53 59 75 76 117
Firearms, type not stated 934 1,003 1,185 992 1,044
Knives or cutting instruments 1,782 1,831 1,776 1,828 1,866
Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) 617 680 681 650 663
Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.) 2 927 961 954 962 933
Poison 8 12 23 9 11
Explosives 9 4 11 4 1
Fire 134 109 103 170 114
Narcotics 20 37 48 44 76
Drowning 15 23 20 17 15
Strangulation 166 153 145 184 155
Asphyxiation 92 116 100 131 105
Other weapons or weapons not stated 799 1,245 874 807 856

1088 people killed by bare handed assailants in 2004. Fists are a deadly weapon.
 
Is a policeman required to take a beating before he can use deadly force?

Are you a policeman? If not, the answer to this question and a buck ninety five will get you a cup of coffee.

1088 people killed by bare handed assailants in 2004. Fists are a deadly weapon.

SOME HANDS in SOME CIRCUMSTANCES. And what percentage of punches thrown in bars cause sudden death? There is no general rule recognized by any court I know of that a fist is per se deadly, like a loaded firearm would be. You have to make the determination based on the specific fists you're facing. The possibility that he might get a lucky hit that causes an infection that causes death is not going to cut it.

None of which is to say you have to take a beating. You can defend yourself with NON-DEADLY FORCE as needed in order to escape. But if you pull a firearm and start blasting because of some statistics you read, I hope you have a very good team of lawyers.

The circumstances are all-important. If you're a 90 lb woman and some 300 lb. man grabs you by the neck and lifts you off the floor while screaming he's going to kill you, fire away! If you're a 300 lb. man and some 150 lb. guy starts punching your arm, causing you a mild annoyance and bruising you, you would not be justified in shooting him even if he is an idiot.
 
Are you a policeman? If not, the answer to this question and a buck ninety five will get you a cup of coffee.

So if I appeared before a jury for using deadly force against a thug using fists on me, and my lawyer asked the question do you think this would be the answer that would impress the jury??

Could the prosecutor offer evidence to a Jury that my life was worth less and less in need of defense than that of a police officer under Delaware law??
He could not, because the standard for the use of deadly force is the same for a policeman as it is for anyone else in Delaware.

Last year wilmington Police 6 of them tased a man several times and then shot him point blank in the chest, when he had no weapon, had not displayed a wepon and had not assaulted a police officer in any way.

Since the police officer testified that he feared for his life and thought that the deceased might have a weapon in his pocket and had not removed his hands on command while he was being tazed, the attorney general could not refute that the officer feared for his life. There were no criminal charges brought.
 
Could the prosecutor offer evidence that my life was worth less and less in need of defense than that of a police officer under Delaware law??

Under the codes of most states, police officers ARE allowed to use deadly force to assert control and enforce the law in situations where you and I could not. There are typically special code provisions for these very circumstances, and they usually only apply to peace officers as defined by the code. On top of this, cops who kill face a completely different procedure than we do. They have a union and a whole system to safeguard them. We have Bup & Kus, attys at law.

Is it fair? No. Is it just? Heck no. Has it created two classes of citizen? Yes! Should these laws be struck down? ABSOLUTELY! But none of that will help you if you're on trial. The law as it stands now is not fair when it comes to distinguishing between the rights of LEO's and the rights of "civilians." But that's another debate for another thread. We have to live with the law as it is now, and that means you can't refer to LEO only provisions to justify your use of force unless you're a covered LEO. A cop can often get away with shooting someone who seemed to have "something" in his pocket and wouldn't show his hands. You and I can't expect the same treatment. Nobody has to empty their pockets for you, and you have no right to pat anyone down.
 
SOME HANDS in SOME CIRCUMSTANCES.
And I'm not going to stop to ask the guy beating on me for his credentials. He goes into the lethal group until I'm otherwise satisfied.

If you're a 300 lb. man and some 150 lb. guy starts punching your arm, causing you a mild annoyance and bruising you, you would not be justified in shooting him even if he is an idiot.
I think we are all adult enough here to realize we are talking about actual threats.
 
Me thinks from the responses that there is a disparity between the pragmatic and the legal. And oftentimes the legal answer isn't the most pragmatic. Most of the legal "advice" given is worth the price we pay for it, considering some of the "standards" discussed in this thread are either not correct or vary by state. Additionally, even though the law is supposed to be the standard by which a jury applies the facts and determines guilt, the jury is also asked to apply their own experience, which tends to skew the application of the law for good or bad. If you ever have a question about whether law is applied blindly, sit awhile in family court.
 
OK. One punch likely will not kill you. One punch will VERY EASILY knock you out. As soon as you are out cold, I think you lose pretty much any defensive ability you have.

I am not a boxer. I have no clue how to take or give a punch. Does that mean I should have to learn while I'm being attacked, to legally defend myself? I'm 5'9" and 175. I'm not hugh, but I'm not a little guy either. However, I get into a fistfight (randomly provoked), chances are I'm getting my ass handed to me. Is it fair that I take a beating because I don't know how to fight, just because the guy that sucker punched me didn't have a gun with him?
 
I'm 45 years old and not in the best of shape( I am working on that though) and I haven't been in a fight since I was a sophomore in high school. If some @sshat decides to get violent with me I'm not going to attempt to ascertain whether the guy is a Tough Man Competition contender on crack or just an idiot out having a good time. I will use what ever force required to stop the attack. being that I am not trained in hand to hand combat i have no intention of going toe to toe with anyone.
 
If you're ever in a fair fight, your tactics suck. That's why I recommend you carry OC even with a firearm. OC is generally taken to be a de-escalation. If the BG is in that magical percentage of the population that drinks OC like OJ, that's what the gun is for. Otherwise, unless there are special circumstances, fists and feet aren't deadly weapons unless they're used in that way.
 
He goes into the lethal group until I'm otherwise satisfied.

The law very rarely grants you such powers. The only exception might be if someone is breaking into your house at night in Texas.

Is it fair that I take a beating because I don't know how to fight, just because the guy that sucker punched me didn't have a gun with him?

No, but then again "taking a beating" doesn't nec. mean you're facing a threat of deadly force. Running away is the best option.
 
Using a firearm in self defense is considered using deadly force. In many states an unarmed bare handed attack is not.
Let's say that you have a concealed carry permit and some thug attacks you bare handed. Are you supposed to give your assailant a "sporting chance" and use only your hands and feet to defend yourself? It seems that the law doesn't take into account who is in "the wrong" in some states.

Just curious, OS

Need more details.

Is he a really big and strong guy who just said he's going to rip your head off (or you have some other reasonably reason to think he's about to seriously injure or kill you)? If so... in most states you could probably use non-deadly force.... I would be hesitant to use deadly force because in court you're probably not going to make it through. Technically if he is a faster runner than you, and is ridiculously strong, and you're pretty sure he's about to kill you - TECHNICALLY you could use a firearm.... but we all know you're unlikely to make it through the court system unless the guy had some massive criminal history involving violence that affirms your side of the story.

If you're not going to die or get seriously injured.... or even if you are and have this option - RUN! That's the best solution given the circumstances. I don't care that here in Florida and in several other states you don't have to retreat. You still run given the scenario you presented. No weapon for the cops to see and say, "Yeah... he was going to kill you." = RUN THE HECK AWAY!

Remember that using a gun is only supposed to be a last resort, because plenty of times you won't make it through the court system unscathed.

I'm very much an advocate of the 2A.... but I'm also an advocate of being smart and staying clear of a jury when you have some other alternative. Being macho isn't worth squat.
 
i'm with roadkinglarry on this one.... i got ten years on him and i'm a small guy.... got my @$$ kicked enough when i was a kid and i'm not getting it again...
 
Whether or not you would be criminally liable if you were to stop what you perceive to a deadly threat with lethal force, you must also realize that not much will protect you from civil action. No matter how justified a DA or judge may construe your actions to have been, you'll face a much bigger fight in civil court. The bad guy you dispatch will be portrayed as the pillar of his community, leaving grieving widows and endless progeny for you to support for all eternity. Even if you emerge victorious your legal defense will take everything you have.

At least you'd be alive, though.

Remember Bernard Goetz was acquitted of attempted murder (as I recall the charge) but lost everything in the civil action that followed. Not to mention O.J. Simpson.
 
Pragmatism: Don't Leave Home Without It.

Cos, I don't want it to appear that I'm picking on you, but you seem to have posted the best and easiest statements to refute.

Cosmoline said:
Under the codes of most states, police officers ARE allowed to use deadly force to assert control and enforce the law in situations where you and I could not.

Would you post a couple of those codes for us to see? As far as I know or have ever been able to find, the police only carry arms for their self defense.

Cosmoline said:
No, but then again "taking a beating" doesn't nec. mean you're facing a threat of deadly force. Running away is the best option.
If I'm taking a beating, it's because I CAN'T run away. I have no idea where my assailant is planing to stop the beating. I'm not willing to wait to find out. I will stop the beating the best, fastest way I know how with what ever I have on hand. Never underestimate the power of the 45ACP.

Cosmoline said:
I sure hope that doesn't mean you're going to use a firearm to keep yourself from getting beaten in a fight

When it comes to my defense, I'd rather be on trial for defending myself than for the other guy to be tried for my murder.

Pragmatism: Don't leave home without it.

Woody


"Give a man a policeman and (maybe) protect him for a day; give him a gun and protect him for life." Elzorro
 
Remember that using a gun is only supposed to be a last resort, because plenty of times you won't make it through the court system unscathed.

I'm very much an advocate of the 2A.... but I'm also an advocate of being smart and staying clear of a jury when you have some other alternative. Being macho isn't worth squat.

Well said.

I am fortunate in that I am 6'7" and about 200 lbs. I may not be huge, but I'm big enough that even as a nerd in grade school I rarely got picked on or bullied. And it doesn't hurt that I can run faster than your average Joe, so that is choice # 1 as long as my family isn't with me. Then I have no choice but to stay and fight to protect my wife and little boy, be it non-deadly or deadly force.

That being said, since I carry frequently I make it a point to avoid situations where even a simple fist fight may errupt. For example, there has been a couple of muggings at a Grocery Store a few miles down the road after dark. So I go to the store that is a bit further out of my way. I drive defensively and I never deliberately provoke anyone. And I am far more aware of my surroundings, simply because I really don't want to draw, much less fire on anyone. I am content punching paper and plinking steel.

That's no gaurantee that bad things can't happen, of course. But I pray nothing like that ever happens, to myself or anyone else here.
 
The law very rarely grants you such powers.
The law absolutely grants you that power in every incident. The legal use of force in self defense is base on your perception of the level of threat. If I feel my life is in danger, I get to use lethal force. Since I know that people are easily and readily killable using empty hand techniques, I consider any serious threat from a person using such metods to be potentially lethal.
 
Well, I think that if a criminal attacks you, the fight is on his terms--his location, his time, with whatever else he wants there. It would be sporting to use deadly force, since you don't know what else he has up his sleeve.
 
Crunker1337
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Join Date: 04-12-07
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 588
----
It would be sporting to use deadly force, since you don't know what else he has up his sleeve.

In New Jersey?!?!? Good luck with that.
 
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