Do you owe a criminal assailant a fair fight?
- Thread starter Owen Sparks
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mgregg85
Member
I know in michigan, the "reasonable man" standard applies. For me its pretty stupid though, how am I supposed to know if someone attacking me doesn't have a knife hidden on his person that he intends to draw once he has me on the ground.
Or maybe he is a chuck norris wannabe, I'd certainly consider that a lethal threat if the guy attacking me happened to be some kind of martial arts master with a bad attitude.
What it really comes down to is you've gotta worry about #1. Save your own life first if you really believe your in lethal danger and worry about the consequences later. You've got a lot better chance of defending yourself in court if you can show up alive.
Or maybe he is a chuck norris wannabe, I'd certainly consider that a lethal threat if the guy attacking me happened to be some kind of martial arts master with a bad attitude.
What it really comes down to is you've gotta worry about #1. Save your own life first if you really believe your in lethal danger and worry about the consequences later. You've got a lot better chance of defending yourself in court if you can show up alive.
eric.cartman
Member
That's the lamest thing I've read on this forum, today.
THE SAME CAN BE SAID ABOUT HANDGUNS & BULLETS.
So I can only shoot them back if their gun is aimed at my head??? Come on. Lame. Fists can be just as deadly as guns.
That may be true, Eric, but sometimes that's the way it works out. If you're willing to hole a man over a simple punchout, there's something wrong.
I've see hundreds of fist fights in my time and nobody died. There are always variables - extreme circumstances, but if you're willing to grease a man over a split lip, you should re-think carrying a gun.
JMO...
Biker
I've see hundreds of fist fights in my time and nobody died. There are always variables - extreme circumstances, but if you're willing to grease a man over a split lip, you should re-think carrying a gun.
JMO...
Biker
eric.cartman
Member
Biker,
I know. Believe me.
I'm 6'4", 180 lbs, 27-yo, good physical strength and shape. I've been in my fair share of fights. My nose tells the story... looks like a boxer's nose... broken 3 times. That was in my younger days. Now I'm married. Working computer professional. My friend's brother got killed 2 years ago, in a bar fight... fists and boots only. I'm in no mood to be in a fist fight. I don't argue with strangers. I never provoke anyone. I don't have a problem swallowing my ego and letting the idiot think he "won". But if some junkie wants to take a swing at me, the gun will clear the leather unless I can safely escape. That however, is not always the option. Wife and I go out a lot. She's 5'2" 95 lbs, and can't run as fast as i can. If a guy wants to punch me, what's there to stop him from punching my wife??? And that will happen over my dead body.
I know. Believe me.
I'm 6'4", 180 lbs, 27-yo, good physical strength and shape. I've been in my fair share of fights. My nose tells the story... looks like a boxer's nose... broken 3 times. That was in my younger days. Now I'm married. Working computer professional. My friend's brother got killed 2 years ago, in a bar fight... fists and boots only. I'm in no mood to be in a fist fight. I don't argue with strangers. I never provoke anyone. I don't have a problem swallowing my ego and letting the idiot think he "won". But if some junkie wants to take a swing at me, the gun will clear the leather unless I can safely escape. That however, is not always the option. Wife and I go out a lot. She's 5'2" 95 lbs, and can't run as fast as i can. If a guy wants to punch me, what's there to stop him from punching my wife??? And that will happen over my dead body.
eric.cartman
Member
Biker,
With all due respect... i didn't say i will kill a man. But i will do my best at defending myself and my wife.
If, despite my warning and possibly sight of a gun, guy still wants to fight. So be it.
With all due respect... i didn't say i will kill a man. But i will do my best at defending myself and my wife.
If, despite my warning and possibly sight of a gun, guy still wants to fight. So be it.
Thernlund
Member
My wife has no problem getting in the face of some guy 4 times her size if she feels wronged. Or even 4 times my size. I think maybe women tend to depend on instinctual chivalry to protect them.
I have to admit, if she gets into a shouting match with some brute bigger then me in a bar, I kind of depend on that same chivalry (toward her) to protect me.
-T.
I have to admit, if she gets into a shouting match with some brute bigger then me in a bar, I kind of depend on that same chivalry (toward her) to protect me.
-T.
revjen45
Member
"Fair fight" are the 2 stupidest words in the English language. That's for sport, not a real life assault. I will not allow myself to be harmed. I will not allow an assailant to contest for posession of the gun with me. I will not present until it's show time, and then it will be deadly serious. I will not pull a gun because some moron gave me the finger or cut me off in traffic. The only thing I have to prove is that I'm not stupid enough to escalate violence over some trivial slight. I am unable to outrun a drunk on a pogo stick, so I will "retreat" by backing away. If threatened I will do whatever is necessary to avoid injury. The criminal who menaces me has no consideration coming.
Aguila Blanca
Member
My understanding is that in most states the standard is that you're allowed to use force to defend against force, and you're allowed to use DEADLY force in self-defense if you are in fear of incurring death or serious (many states call it "grievous" bodily harm. If I think the other dude is going to kill me or stomp me -- I don't believe I have either a moral or a legal obligation to "fight fair."Owen Sparks said:
I also don't think there is any such thing as a "fair" assault. A fair fight is when both opponents are more or less equally matched (at least in theory, we know from professional boxing theory doesn't always carry over into practice) and, more importantly, have both agreed to the fight. If I didn't ask you to assault me, I feel no necessity to "fight fair" in dissuading your attack.
ConstitutionCowboy
member
If someone sucker punches me and walks away, I'll see him(her) in court. If someone starts beating on me, I'll stop it with the best tool I have available; usually a 1911.
It's like going to the mall. I don't go there in a Suburban, a Taurus, and a Mini; not knowing how much stuff I end up buying. I take the Suburban because it covers all scenarios, and it's a burden taking three vehicles to the mall. I carry a 1911 because it covers all the scenarios I might encounter. It's a burden to carry an array of arms capable of meeting the needs of each possible scenario, especially when one will cover it all. I do carry a back-up, but it's only for if the primary fails or is not accessible.
Woody
It's like going to the mall. I don't go there in a Suburban, a Taurus, and a Mini; not knowing how much stuff I end up buying. I take the Suburban because it covers all scenarios, and it's a burden taking three vehicles to the mall. I carry a 1911 because it covers all the scenarios I might encounter. It's a burden to carry an array of arms capable of meeting the needs of each possible scenario, especially when one will cover it all. I do carry a back-up, but it's only for if the primary fails or is not accessible.
Woody
poor_richard
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I haven’t read all the posts in this thread but I have read many of them.
It seems to me there are some people who are under the impression that, someone who chooses to defend their life in an attack with overwhelming force, is equal to someone who is, “looking for an excuse to use lethal force”. I believe that is a misconception (and possibly a misconception that is a result of projection).
I say the same thing here that I told someone on another thread. That is: “I don’t fight”. Period. Stop. End of story. If you think that I should give a criminal a “fair fight”, then I question your state of mind and wonder if maybe it’s you who is looking for trouble (it’s that projection thing). In my case, there is absolutely no such thing as a “fight” with a criminal, simply because, “I DON”T FIGHT” (has this gotten through yet?).
If I am assaulted, it isn’t a “fight”; it is an assault with intent to do grievous harm or death. Why grievous or death is because once he assaults, it is unreasonable to expect me to wait until he connects to find out if he will kill me with the first punch, or if I will die from the potential fall. It is also unreasonable to expect me to wait until he gets me on the ground for me to find out if he will kick me to death or help me back up. It is also unreasonable to assume that my attacker just wants to “give me a fat lip”.
Also, I’ve been around long enough to understand that if someone is willing to assault me, it means that they are of the belief that they can best me in mortal combat. Let that sink in.
Most people do not go into to such an altercation expecting to come out on the loosing end. Often times, people will escalate a violent encounter until they subdue their victim. The reason that criminals are considered cowards is that they prey upon those whom they think are weaker than themselves.
Through experience, I’ve learned that it’s best to avoid such encounters. However, should such encounters be unavoidable, it is best to meet such an assault with such force that the attacker is either unwilling, or unable to continue the assault. The idea that, “all I risk is a fat lip”, sounds ludicrous. I have no idea what my attackers intentions are, and since they are attacking me, I am not of the mind to believe that an appeal to their benevolence will save me from great physical harm or death.
For all those of you who think that I should not use lethal force against an unarmed man, understand this: I do not want to be in any situation in which I am forced to defend my life, another’s life, or any of my property. The legal and civil “headaches” that such an event could possible bring is something that I never want to experience. I don’t care if it’s a clean “SD”, with 100 witnesses, and the Grand Jury pins a medal on my chest thanking me for a community service. I don’t want it! I’d much rather live in peace, without such attention or aggravation. Therefore, if I ever do (God, please forbid it) have to defend myself from any attack (armed or unarmed), I hope there are plenty of witnesses to attest to the fact that there was a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. And, that I survive intact.
It seems to me there are some people who are under the impression that, someone who chooses to defend their life in an attack with overwhelming force, is equal to someone who is, “looking for an excuse to use lethal force”. I believe that is a misconception (and possibly a misconception that is a result of projection).
I say the same thing here that I told someone on another thread. That is: “I don’t fight”. Period. Stop. End of story. If you think that I should give a criminal a “fair fight”, then I question your state of mind and wonder if maybe it’s you who is looking for trouble (it’s that projection thing). In my case, there is absolutely no such thing as a “fight” with a criminal, simply because, “I DON”T FIGHT” (has this gotten through yet?).
If I am assaulted, it isn’t a “fight”; it is an assault with intent to do grievous harm or death. Why grievous or death is because once he assaults, it is unreasonable to expect me to wait until he connects to find out if he will kill me with the first punch, or if I will die from the potential fall. It is also unreasonable to expect me to wait until he gets me on the ground for me to find out if he will kick me to death or help me back up. It is also unreasonable to assume that my attacker just wants to “give me a fat lip”.
Also, I’ve been around long enough to understand that if someone is willing to assault me, it means that they are of the belief that they can best me in mortal combat. Let that sink in.
Most people do not go into to such an altercation expecting to come out on the loosing end. Often times, people will escalate a violent encounter until they subdue their victim. The reason that criminals are considered cowards is that they prey upon those whom they think are weaker than themselves.
Through experience, I’ve learned that it’s best to avoid such encounters. However, should such encounters be unavoidable, it is best to meet such an assault with such force that the attacker is either unwilling, or unable to continue the assault. The idea that, “all I risk is a fat lip”, sounds ludicrous. I have no idea what my attackers intentions are, and since they are attacking me, I am not of the mind to believe that an appeal to their benevolence will save me from great physical harm or death.
For all those of you who think that I should not use lethal force against an unarmed man, understand this: I do not want to be in any situation in which I am forced to defend my life, another’s life, or any of my property. The legal and civil “headaches” that such an event could possible bring is something that I never want to experience. I don’t care if it’s a clean “SD”, with 100 witnesses, and the Grand Jury pins a medal on my chest thanking me for a community service. I don’t want it! I’d much rather live in peace, without such attention or aggravation. Therefore, if I ever do (God, please forbid it) have to defend myself from any attack (armed or unarmed), I hope there are plenty of witnesses to attest to the fact that there was a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. And, that I survive intact.
SWMAN
Member
How do you know the attacker is not trying to kill you?
Rich K
Member
Well said, Poor Richard. WEll said indeed.
eric.cartman
Member
She makes a naive assumption that she will not get punched in the face, doesn't she?
You cannot give a criminal assailant a fair fight.
why? Because if it is a criminal assailant they already choose the time and ground.
They already have the advantage so anything you do is merely trying to even your odds at best. Even if that means force escalation, they still effectively chose the terms of the fight.
Its not your fault they decided to attack you and your best response was more than they could manage.
why? Because if it is a criminal assailant they already choose the time and ground.
They already have the advantage so anything you do is merely trying to even your odds at best. Even if that means force escalation, they still effectively chose the terms of the fight.
Its not your fault they decided to attack you and your best response was more than they could manage.
rageofangels
Member
Am I fighting in the ring or outside of the ring?
Snipe315
Member
A Fight is a FIGHT
For everyone who says that the use of deadly force isn't appropriate when facing an attacker armed only with his/her fists isn't thinking straight.
There doesn't need to be a huge size difference in favor of the attacker either. The fact that they are attacking you means they intend to do harm. How much harm doesn't matter.
And you don't have to believe they can KILL you in order to defend yourself with any and everything at your disposal. If they intend to do you serious bodily harm you have the RIGHT to protect yourself.
Here is an example:
I once saw a fist fight between 2 people. The attacker was about 150lbs @ 5'7". The guy he was attacking weighed almost 200lbs and stood 5'11. It sounds like the guy defending himself wasn't in mortal danger. Apparently he thought so to since he never drew his CCW that we later found out he legally had.
BIG MISTAKE.
The fight only lasted a minute or 2. The attacker landed a lucky blow to the defenders head. No major damage but it allowed him to get in close. His next swing wasn't with a closed fist. He swung a wide hay-maker with his thumb extended and stuck it into the other guys eye. The fight was broken up my police and bystanders shortly after that.
The VICTIM is now called PATCH. They couldn't save his damaged eye. :banghead:
Was he in danger of serious harm from a smaller attacker? The results speak for themselves.
There are no fair fights in life. Almost anyone can cause serious harm to another if they try hard enough, are skilled enough, or just lucky enough. Not doing whatever you have to do to escape or end the attack can cost you more than bruises.
For everyone who says that the use of deadly force isn't appropriate when facing an attacker armed only with his/her fists isn't thinking straight.
There doesn't need to be a huge size difference in favor of the attacker either. The fact that they are attacking you means they intend to do harm. How much harm doesn't matter.
And you don't have to believe they can KILL you in order to defend yourself with any and everything at your disposal. If they intend to do you serious bodily harm you have the RIGHT to protect yourself.
Here is an example:
I once saw a fist fight between 2 people. The attacker was about 150lbs @ 5'7". The guy he was attacking weighed almost 200lbs and stood 5'11. It sounds like the guy defending himself wasn't in mortal danger. Apparently he thought so to since he never drew his CCW that we later found out he legally had.
BIG MISTAKE.
The fight only lasted a minute or 2. The attacker landed a lucky blow to the defenders head. No major damage but it allowed him to get in close. His next swing wasn't with a closed fist. He swung a wide hay-maker with his thumb extended and stuck it into the other guys eye. The fight was broken up my police and bystanders shortly after that.
The VICTIM is now called PATCH. They couldn't save his damaged eye. :banghead:
Was he in danger of serious harm from a smaller attacker? The results speak for themselves.
There are no fair fights in life. Almost anyone can cause serious harm to another if they try hard enough, are skilled enough, or just lucky enough. Not doing whatever you have to do to escape or end the attack can cost you more than bruises.
Pax Jordana
Member
Gotta go with Poor Richard on this one. I wanted to share an example.
People who have fought and trained with chuck say that outside the ring he was the nicest guy.. soft-spoken, positive, mutually affirming type. Then as soon as he'd get into the ring he was a total animal.
A man we could all seek to emulate in that respect - WWCD?
People who have fought and trained with chuck say that outside the ring he was the nicest guy.. soft-spoken, positive, mutually affirming type. Then as soon as he'd get into the ring he was a total animal.
A man we could all seek to emulate in that respect - WWCD?
Well Snipe, ya had to get all personal and...*stuff*...dintcha? I'm a damn idiot? I spent years bouncing in some badass bars, rode as a 1%er for much of my life and I've witnessed a butt-load of fights - been in a few myself.
Never saw a man die as a result of a simple fist fight.
You ever watch a man take the Last Train West? Ain't too damn pretty. Real life ain't Hollywood and you're not gonna pop out with some witty quip after you lay a man low.
So you just get on with your bad-ass trigger-happy self and hope for someone to grease at the local Burger King.
If your gun is your only 'weapon', you're behind the curve already.
But keep hoping! Hell, you might get lucky tonight!
Biker...Shaking His Shaggy Head
Never saw a man die as a result of a simple fist fight.
You ever watch a man take the Last Train West? Ain't too damn pretty. Real life ain't Hollywood and you're not gonna pop out with some witty quip after you lay a man low.
So you just get on with your bad-ass trigger-happy self and hope for someone to grease at the local Burger King.
If your gun is your only 'weapon', you're behind the curve already.
But keep hoping! Hell, you might get lucky tonight!
Biker...Shaking His Shaggy Head
Snipe315
Member
You are right about the term Idiot being to personal and too strong Biker; I've changed it accordingly.
That being said, I think being blinded in one eye falls under the SERIOUS BODILY HARM category and you have EVERY RIGHT to defend yourself from such an attack to prevent such an injury.
Maybe you think the loss of one eye isn't that bad since most of us have two...
That being said, I think being blinded in one eye falls under the SERIOUS BODILY HARM category and you have EVERY RIGHT to defend yourself from such an attack to prevent such an injury.
Maybe you think the loss of one eye isn't that bad since most of us have two...
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