Do you still believe that your gun related records are safe?

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Considering the recent revelations about monitoring servers at the major internet providers (which the internet providers deny except under limited circumstances), telephone records, emails and so forth... nothing is safe. Even if a court order is required, they can get one. I read it took three attempts to get the court order signed to allow seizing journalist communications.... but they found a judge that would sign it.

Drones? Police agencies using drones for surveilance? Why not enforcement?

So now we have the implementation of ObamaCare coming up. Even with all coverage being equal to private insurance, do you think your personal medical information is not going to be available? It is in essence already through the health insurance companies. Big Brother.... It's happening and has been happening.

No, I don't believe that the data provided on a 4473 is safely stored at your local FFL dealer. It is but, the NICs checks will be saved. It is just a matter of time before almost every firearm in the US is documented in some sort of registry.

I suspect that all the BATFE has to do is send out an announcement that all FFL dealers licenses will be terminated on a certain date and a new number will be issued within one-week. (A minor disruption in commerce for the overall good?) All the 4473 records could be required to go immediately to the BATFE for storage.

Information is power.....
 
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With so many types available for FTF sales, it's not much of an issue, unless living/working in a distant rural area.

Ten of my thirteen guns were bought in FTF sales. Five others bought via interstate shipping to FFLs were sold.
But you guys/gals are welcome to continue paying those high prices (in normal times) from retail FFLs with records supposedly deleted after a while....
 
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So you just said you own 13 firearms.... With email and telephone records being seized, do you honestly believe that what you just said is not on some government server right now?
 
mountainsco said:
What happens to the 4473's when you close shop or retire from selling firearms?
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When a Class 01 (or 07 SOT) retires, all the 4473s are to go to the BATFE. So far there's no such requirement for Class 03 (C&R) FFL holders. You aren't even required to keep you logbook. But that's like saying the IRS can "only" require you keep your records for 3 years, which is what their agents tell you. But Financial Planners, CPAs and tax lawyers will tell you they can subpoena your records for as far back as they need to nail you.
 
beatledog7 said:
What you implied about a government run by citizens with the consent of citizens is supposed to be true, but the concept has largely died, given way to a "citizenry" that prefers to be cared for than cared about and would rather be coddled than be free. We're being ruled, not led and not served, by a group whose craving for power and deep-seated need to be in charge far outstrips any desire to lead and serve.
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You're being a bit melodramatic.

True: the voters want to be taken care of. No question about that. So it should come as no surprise that they directed gov't to take care of them. But that's not the gov't's fault.

But to say we're being "ruled" over, that's just silly. Look at what just happened with gun control. We had a tragedy (several of them, actually) and some folks started clamoring for some change. A bill was drafted, it went to the senate, didn't get enough votes, done. Democracy was served. The majority of people in this country don't want more gun laws. How else can you interpret that?

I fail to see how the voter isn't in charge here.
 
I agree with beatledog.

The gun control issue is so powerful that even when the politicians tried to pass it against the wishes of the people, some elected officials feared getting voted out of office and the uprising so great the effort to impose that law failed. The fact that it was attempted is an indication that their is an intent to impose and rule, and not carry out the wishes of the people. (unless you think the country is in favor of gun control). I believe that many congressmen (and women) would have voted for gun control, even though the people do not want it, but did not ONLY because they knew they would lose their next election. This is an extreme example.

In numerous other cases, the government does things that the people do not want. Healthcare was an example, Drones are another, the tide has shifted on the drug war yet those laws stand, and with the monitoring of calls, emails, and such, the people certaintly don't want that. And, this does not even touch on all the things they say they will do before they are elected and then do not do, or all the stuff they do in office or when on their watch, that they are not suppose to be doing (holder, IRS, GSA . . )

Even worse, several of those actions clearly violate the constitution, yet attempts were made to impose those rules. Even if the majority want a certain change, it is still a violation to the make that change if it violates the constitution. It takes a 2/3 vote to amend the constitution, which is fine, I just want them to follow the rules.
 
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When I wrote Shot Works to keep track of my gun related info, the very first thing I did was the strongest encryption I could manage reasonably. Tied that in with no data going out to the internet, and I'm happy enough. So far we still have the 5th amendment saying you don't have to give up your password to the system.
 
M2 Carbine said:
When we had to start filling out Federal paperwork to buy a gun I knew those records were never going to be "safe".


The guns without a paper trail, such as in face to face sales (I get or give NO information in FTF buys or sales) are safe as far as the Feds having any record of them.

Everything else that I bought from a FFL dealer can easily be traced to me.



"legal justification"?
You are talking about a administration that sent guns to the Mexican drug dealers, that were used to kill Americans. Legal justification means nothing to them.
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What he said, times twelve...
 
These latest revelations really bother me and I try not to wear a "tin hat". My computer has been doing funky things that I don't understand. To think that the Federal government is retrieving and storing emails, telephone records, social media (which THR is one of), and so forth without cause really troubles me. How can I trust that some "law" keeps the Feds from creating a gun registry or storing NICs check information automatically? You can't. Laws don't seem to stop them and then nobody is responsible. The politicians simply say... let's not allow this to happen again after something has been going on for years. That is pure BS. It is always that other guy's fault.... if you can even figure out who the other guy is.
 
If "the gov't" isn't doing what you, personally, want, that doesn't mean the system is wrong, it just means that you're in the minority.
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What you describe is a "democratic" form of government (majority rules). The United States is a Constitutional Republic. There is a huge difference.
 
Nothing is sacred when it comes to your firearms with the current political environment we live in. I don't think that they are constantly monitoring who is buying when and what, however if they are curious I don't think they lose any sleep over taking an unjustified gander.
 
0to60, as Hoppes points out in #87, the US is not a democracy. Let me respond to the point he quoted:

If "the gov't" isn't doing what you, personally, want, that doesn't mean the system is wrong, it just means that you're in the minority.
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It isn't a question of what I want or what the majority wants--it's about what is directed or forbidden by the Constitution.

And then there's this:

True: the voters want to be taken care of. No question about that. So it should come as no surprise that they directed gov't to take care of them. But that's not the gov't's fault.
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American voters can't legitimately have something they want just by exhibiting a voting majority. You see, the Constitution very clearly lists those things that are for the federal government to do, and it specifically prohibits the federal government from doing some things. It also clearly states that whatever isn't specifically granted to the federal government as a power is not a power the federal government can claim. It does not allow for a vote of the people to override any of its provisions.

The federal government has no legitimate power to "take care of" the people as it does today. It also has no legitimate power to regulate the ownership and carry of firearms. Arguably, neither do the states (but that's another thread). A federal legislator's main job is to follow the Constitution (they all swear to do this) and refrain from making laws that are unconstitutional, unenforceable, or just plain bad for the country. Oh, and to never vote for a law he or she doesn't understand or hasn't read.

The idea that once they take their seats they must make new laws is presumptuous; they should never make a new law to accomplish something Constitutionally valid that could be done by striking an existing law. And the idea that once they take their seats they must do what the people want is patently absurd.
 
mrvco said:
We're well beyond the "Go to the sporting goods store. From the files obtain forms 4473. These will contain descriptions of weapons, and lists of private ownership." days of Red Dawn.
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ya, but they are looking for the "yellow forms" ... they're white now ;-)
 
Sol said:
^read the cracked article yesterday and the Utah database has been around for a few years. Supposedly it has 20,000,000,000,000 phone calls, texts, emails, credit card purchases etc etc.. from everyone in the world.
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To quote Gene Hackman in "Enemy of The State" ... "and that's what they could do 20 years ago..." :what:
 
22-rimfire said:
No, I don't believe that the data provided on a 4473 is safely stored at your local FFL dealer. It is but, the NICs checks will be saved. It is just a matter of time before almost every firearm in the US is documented in some sort of registry.
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The NICS checks data contains no firearm info other than "Long gun, handgun, other".

Information is power.....
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Yes it is ... but several warehouses full of 20 year old hand written, mouse eaten, turns to dust in your hands forms is a -long- ways from "useful information".
 
Oh please! It's the government for Pete sake! You act like they spy on us, or trample on our rights. No one wants your guns, or gun records any more than anyone wants to listen to your phone calls, or read your emails. :scrutiny: Take off the tin foil. There's no scandle here. Uncle Barry is just trying to protect us from people like, well, people like him. :uhoh:

I wonder how many weeks it will take before Aunt Finkstein comes all callin' for more fun control? Our records are not safe, period.

Geno
 
We are all on lists. What does it matter, if everyone is on it. If you think you aren't, think again. If you pass around a joke that contains a humerous cartoon of an Arab or Leboneese, "or any other nationality", or a photo, or belong to a forum, of any kind, critisize Govt policy, send letters to your Reps, etc. etc. the chances are that you are on a list someware.They just happened to get caught doing more obvious crap than before. Chance is that if you aren't on some list, you have more than 2 legs, or have been in a coma for the last 20 yrs.
 
Now that 1984 state is being revealed it is time to stop worrying about any agency having you in a data-base. Everything is in there; phone, ammo purchases, credit card activity, all letters sent by USPS (envelopes - front & back) digitally recorded and stored.

Do not cower and fret. Be brave and stand up for freedom by writing Congress, newspapers, speaking to friends and co-workers. By being 2nd A supporters you are in company w/ Washington, Jefferson, and P. Henry.

Do not hide - if you are in the 2nd A closet now is the time to peacefully come out and proclaim your beliefs.:)
 
Seeing as the govt has done NOTHING to make me believe/trust anything they say I do not think any records are safe and private. I think they have done and are doing a lot worse than just what has been brought to our attention these past couple weeks.
 
Big Brother has everything digital. They are in the process of digitalizinng all medical records. This means they have your: credit/debit purchases, medical records, all electronic communications, Internet postings, employment, and law enforcement files. They have keys for all encryption programs. Still feel safe??
:what::what::what:
 
Don't be suprised at anything anymore. Just assume that everything you say or do is on tape or a hard drive someware.
 
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