Doctors asking about guns: Research [long]

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Heywood Case

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[My apologies for the excessive length of this post]

From time to time one hears of concerns from doctors asking questions about guns in the home. I just ran across a new report that may be of interest to those who are concerned. The study attempted to identify priorities for "clinical prevention services", that is, what are the most important things medical providers should be addressing with their patients in order to prevent health problems beyond the immediate reasons for the visit. The project involved a 24-member panel headed by former Surgeon General David Satcher, and involved a comprehensive review of more than 8,000 published studies. The goal was to "produce comparable estimates of relative health impact and cost effectiveness for services considered effective by the U.S. Preventative Services Task Force and Advisory Commitee on Immunization Practices" and was an update of a previous study completed in 2001.

The hallmark of the study is that rather than trying to identify all possible things a doctor might ask about, they wanted to identify where they could make the greatest difference, and which would be most cost-effective to implement. Priority scores were assigned that combined "quality adjusted life years" (QALY) and cost effectiveness (QALY divided by estimated costs). I won't make this even longer by going into lots of details on the methods; that is available at the link referenced below.

In the 2001 report, firearms were included in a single grouped category in the 30 that rose to the top: "Assess the safety practices of all persons aged >= 4 and provide counseling on: seatbelt use, smoke detector use, firearm storage / removal from home, bicycle / motorcycle helmet use, dangers of alcohol use, protection against slip and fall hazards for older persons." This item was ranked 27th on the list, with a priority score of 3 (scores ranged from 2 to 10). The top three items included vaccination of children, screening and counseling for tobacco use, and screening for vision impairment among adults 65 and older (scores 10, 9, and 9). So even when included with a host of other factors, firearms in the home ranked very low on the list.

Now looking at the 2006 report, the first thing that jumped out at me was that firearms are not even mentioned. There is a single category for "injury prevention counseling", which now includes "child safety seats, window / stair guards, pool fence, poison control, hot water temperature, and bicycle helmets" and is referenced for "parents of children aged < 5 years". This category was 20th of a list of 25 priority areas, with a priority score of 4 (again scores ranged from 2 to 10). At the top of the list was discussion of aspirin use for prevention of hear attacks, childhood immunization, and smoking.

In summary, the presence of firearms in the home is not listed as a priority at all, and even injury prevention framed globally came out quite low on the list of "bang for the buck" priorities for clinical screening and intervention by doctors.

Of course, this doesn't mean the public health community has decided that firearms in the home are a wonderful thing. The authors make a point of saying that there are many areas where there is insufficient research for estimates within the study framework, and that issues with smaller "target populations" ranked low by definition even though they may be important under some conditions (my words). But firearms aren't mentioned in this context either.

One might also quibble with the overall methodology, the philosophy of how the researchers defined the priorities or the value of the very notion of "clinical preventive services." I'm not going to concern myself there. In the authors' concluding words, "The goal of this study was to summarize the best available data on clinical preventive services to assist all types of decision makers in choosing where to focus their prevention efforts." They did their best, and at the end of the day there were a lot more important things for them to worry about than firearms in the home.

And you can bet that if they could have found a reason to include firearms in the list, they would have...

Maciosek et. al. (2006). Priorities Among Effective Clinical Preventive Services: Results of a Systematic Review and Analysis. American Journal of Preventive Medicine (in press). Full text and supporting documents available at http://www.prevent.org/content/view/46/96/.
 
I'm a medical provider, and I never ask- I don't believe the accident prevention crap, and as far as guns in the home, it's none of my business. Now, that said, if I'm counseling new parents, I might mention that guns should not be accessible to children, but that's kind of a "Duh!" statement. It's a shame that there is this liberal faction in medicine, that gets the publicity. But it's by no way universal.
 
There are a lot of doctors out there, if you find one that makes you uncomfortable find a new one, and tell the old one why.
 
That information is on a need to know basis, and right now, you don't need to know.

Works for me, I don't discuss guns with people I don't have a strong friend or family relationship with. It does more harm than good.
 
---quote------
But it's by no way universal.
---------------

Maybe not in all health specialties, but in the pediatric community it is pandemic.
 
When I went through my peds rotation, we discussed this topic. The concensus from the staff was that our "party line" would be to lock up all guns seperate from ammo, or better yet, get them out of the home whhile thhe kids are young". I figure anyone dumb enough to listen to a pediatrician who displays ZERO firearms credentials about gun safety is probably better off getting their firearms out of the home.
 
Peditricians

I have a 4 month old and our peditrician and ob/gyn roled their eyes when they got to the guns part of the checklist as did the nurse teaching the delivery class. The lactation consultant was an avid bullseye shooter. My PCP just nods at the calus on my right hip from the IWB holster I wear and joyfull signs off on the lead test for my blood work when I tell him its because we cast wheel weights into diving wieghts. So in my experience its not across the board attitude.
 
antsi said:
Maybe not in all health specialties, but in the pediatric community it is pandemic.
I would have to agree. When I was a med student maybe 10 years ago this whole topic was just cropping up. During our peds and family med rotations we were taught to start asking questions about seatbelt use, bike/hockey helmets, pool fences, and firearms access as part of the "review of systems" for pediatric patients. Personally, I did not find this particularly offensive. After all, accidents are the leading cause of injury/death in the pediatric population.

So, I would agree that firearms should not be easily accessible to kids. However, the party line seems to have been sharpened a bit. Somehow "make sure your guns are secure so the kids don't play with them" seems to have morphed into "get those baby-killers out of your house, you maniac!"
 
Is it just me, or did the author seem desperate to prove his point of "guns=bad, and guns in house=dead kids" even after all the evidence he presented was to the contrary?

Never let logic get in the way of a good argument.:neener:
 
lock up all guns seperate from ammo
I must confess, I have never understood this mantra. If an "unauthorized person," regardless of age or relationship, can get into one secure place, then they can get into another.

If they know enough about guns to load them, then they know enough not to misuse them, . . . or they are simply advancing their Darwination.
 
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"After all, accidents are the leading cause of injury/death in the pediatric population."

But we are talking about a very specific type of accident.
One the CDC has collected data on for many many years.
And the numbers of accidents involving death from firearms in children 13 and under is not very large at all.

Since the AMA opposes firearms ownership and has repeatedly stated so, any physician asking about firearm ownership is immediately suspect.
There are at least 200 million firearms in private hands in this country, and the rate of accidents with them is a very small number.

And it is not an 'accident' when a teenager gets a weapon and manages to shoot someone.
They loaded it, they aimed it, they pulled the trigger.
Each step was deliberate.
 
Doctor: Do you have any guns in the home?
You: OMG! Doctor, do you think little Johnny' rash is actually a GUNSHOT WOUND! :eek: Commence hysterics.
 
The only thing I ever mention to patients is helmets and wrist guards for bikes/roller blades; seatbelts when applicable; helmets for motorcycles.
 
I put doctors in the same catagory as my car mechanic.
I bring it in to be fixed.
Do your thing and otherwise don't talk to me.
Don't tell me other stuff I didn't ask about.
It's my body and my car. I know it a lot better than you do.

AFS
 
The only time my doctor asks me about guns is when he wants to know if I have bought anything new to shoot. :D
 
brickeye said:
"After all, accidents are the leading cause of injury/death in the pediatric population."

But we are talking about a very specific type of accident.
One the CDC has collected data on for many many years.
And the numbers of accidents involving death from firearms in children 13 and under is not very large at all.
When I said "personally, I did not find this particularly offensive. After all, accidents are the leading cause of injury/death in the pediatric population" I was not speaking specifically about firearms. I was referring to the practice of asking questions about "risk reduction," such as seatbelt use, bike/hockey helmets, pool fences, and firearms access.


brickeye said:
Since the AMA opposes firearms ownership and has repeatedly stated so, any physician asking about firearm ownership is immediately suspect.
Whatever the AMA says, there are many physicians (such as myself) who own and use firearms. So it's not like all of us just blindly follow the AMA. By the same token, I have personally been in homes of firearms owners who have unsecured, loaded handguns all over the place and kids running all over the house. I was in a good friend's house when he showed me his new Glock 19 and AK-47. He casually dropped them on the bed and his 5 year old son hopped up and grabbed the (loaded) G19 and pointed it at him. When I freaked out, he laughed and made fun of me for being such a wuss about it.

I humbly suggest that not all firearms owners are as safety conscious as we here on THR.org
 
IMHO, if pediatricians really want to help, they would get little cards with the 4 rules of gun safety and suggest parents make themselves and their children familiar with them. It wouldn't be a bad thing to practice those rules with toy guns as well. Good habits are good habits.
 
Many docs oppose this idiocy

My wife is a doctor and she and her partners refuse to take part in this rubbish. One partner's wife is a pediatrician and is constatantly getting stuff from anti gun groups. Now this doctor, who also happens to be my doc, being the good guy he is keeps sending their envelopes that are postage paid to them asking for more....just to slowly drain their coffers...:D
 
"After all, accidents are the leading cause of injury/death in the pediatric population" I was not speaking specifically about firearms. I was referring to the practice of asking questions about "risk reduction," such as seatbelt use, bike/hockey helmets, pool fences, and firearms access."

There, you just did it again. "...and firearms access."
By simply equating the risk of unsecured firearms with seatbelts, helmets, etc. you have fallen into the trap. The risks are grossly out of proportion. Firearms are a very minor hazard to children.
I do not care if you are a member of the AMA. They are the largest single physicians group on the US and have a significant influence at the local and national level.
I have only heard of a very few physicians even attempting to counteract the opinions the AMA publicly and loudly exhorts.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke.
 
I recieve 100% VA disability. Starting about 1988 they kept trying to get me to apply for PTSD. I refused to apply for it. The VA scheduled me for a pscytractic(sp) evaluation-unbenost to be! I reported for the doctor appt. thinking I was seeing a real doctor. I walked into his office, sat down, and the questions began.

Have you ever thought of killing anybody who make you mad?
Have you ever brought pain on yourself on purpose?
Do you get satisfaction from it?
Do you like guns?
Do you feel more comfortable with guns around?
etc, etc, etc,.

This is from a memory years ago. I may not have the questions in the order asked or the exact wording, but the intent is accurate.

Everytime I have a doctor appt., either the nurse or doctor askes me if I have anything bothering me.

I think that this is an underlying motive to keep me from ownig guns or being able to buy them.

My wife picked up on this before I did. I was nieve and trusted the system.
 
Even though I hate going to the dentist.
Me and my dentist talk about guns/hunting almost every time.
It's a very nice relationship and I have to admit it does make the visit just a little bit better.:uhoh:
 
keep in mind the socioeconomic & educational status of the parents that these topics are aimed at. I'm sure a white couple in their 30s having their first child in Newport Beach would be counseled (if at all) differently than a 17 year old single hispanic girl having her first child in Santa Ana. Which is not to say it's any better of course to do it for a lower-income person but the gov't trusts them less to make safe decisions.
 
Thefabulousfink said:

Is it just me, or did the author seem desperate to prove his point of "guns=bad, and guns in house=dead kids" even after all the evidence he presented was to the contrary?

Never let logic get in the way of a good argument.

:confused:

Thefabulousfink - If you mean the author of the report, as I said, there was no mention of firearms at all in the report I cited. If you mean me, I made no such argument. The point of my posting was that this major research effort completely failed to unearth any evidence that screening for firearms ownership is a valuable use of physicians' time during office visits, relative to the many other issues considered (with the caveat that the report was not specifically focused on pediatric practice).

-John
 
"...doctors asking questions about guns in the home..." Doctors, it ain't. It's the AMA. The American Medical Assoc. Right up there with Sarah Brady's bunch. Lots of MD's shoot knowing full well that shooting is less dangerous than driving to work.
 
I had one doctor do this ONCE in a local hospitol , I then asked him did he gamble or have a mistress . HE asked me what difference did that make concerning his treating me . I told him ,he might be tempted to pad my bill to cover his 'extracurricular' expenses ... that got around the hospitol quick :evil:
 
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