Trouble handloading for the Savage 12FV

[RussellC]

I have put the scope base and rings on this gun and loaded up a few primerless, powderless rounds from the brass and bullets I am starting with. It is comprised of a Sierra 53 grain HP bullet, and LC brass I have sized body and neck with Redding Competition micrometer bushing neck, and their matching Body die, trimmed to 1.75."

Sierra calls for 2.250 for this bullet, and 2.260 for the 69 grain match king I also planned to load, but the 53 grain is giving me trouble. I set them for 2.250 inches and chambered it, and it shrank in length to 2.240-2.238 COL.

I inserted another by hand in the chamber, which slid in easily until the last bit, when a very slight resistance was encountered. I removed the bullet, re neck sized and reseated the bullet. put it in, extracted, now it grew to almost 2.270! I wondered if that slight resistance was felt pulled the bullet out as the round was extracted?

It then dawned on me that this new gun had not only never been fired, it hadnt been cleaned of the factory gunk, I cleaned it, and it did seem to help considerable with the slight resistance, but still shrank from 2.250 to 2.240 or so.

Examining the bullets tip, there are marks on it, not sure if those are rifling marks or not.

Who else is loading for this gun and have you had similar trouble with bullets in the 2.250 and longer?

excedrin headache # 53...

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

I tried one at 2.231 and it seems to hold. Is this about the max length for this chamber, or do I need to clean more crude out?

Russellc

 

[Sunray]

SAAMI Max OAL for .223 is 2.260". Use that for all bullet weights and save yourself all the grief. You do have a bunch of tolerance to play with as well.
It's best to work with one bullet weight at a time too. You must work up a load for each weight anyway. Anyway, I suspect what's happening is you're fiddling with DP rounds with no firm grip on the bullet. The bullet is loose and is getting stick into the rifling.
Marks on the tip/point of the bullet are likely from the seating plug. Rifling marks will be on the body of the bullet and are really obviously rifling marks.
Plus if the LC brass is once fired, you must FL(full length) resize it first.

 

[Blue68f100]

Sounds like your gun has a min spec chamber. Your bullet is into the lands. You need to figure where the lands are at for each of the bullets your going to shoot. I have a min spec chamber too. There are several bullets that book spec puts me into the lands. Once you find the lands I like to back off 0.020-0.030". Then you start a min charge and work up.

 

[RussellC]

SAAMI Max OAL for .223 is 2.260". Use that for all bullet weights and save yourself all the grief. You do have a bunch of tolerance to play with as well.
It's best to work with one bullet weight at a time too. You must work up a load for each weight anyway. Anyway, I suspect what's happening is you're fiddling with DP rounds with no firm grip on the bullet. The bullet is loose and is getting stick into the rifling.
Marks on the tip/point of the bullet are likely from the seating plug. Rifling marks will be on the body of the bullet and are really obviously rifling marks.
Plus if the LC brass is once fired, you must FL(full length) resize it first.

Well , per my first post it was full length resized, and was at 2.260. The necks are resized with a bushing die to proper spec, and leaning on the bullet fairly hard didnt drive it in any further. If I put one in the action and close the bolt, they stick around 2.31.

I shortened to 2.240, but it pressed it in to 2.231 again.

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

Sounds like your gun has a min spec chamber. Your bullet is into the lands. You need to figure where the lands are at for each of the bullets your going to shoot. I have a min spec chamber too. There are several bullets that book spec puts me into the lands. Once you find the lands I like to back off 0.020-0.030". Then you start a min charge and work up.

This sounds like the way to proceed. I have noticed I can not use the Sheridan case gauge to check my .223 rounds loaded with these Sierra bullets, or any match kings I have tried. The case head stands proud, bullet is getting hung up.

Russellc

 

[243winxb]

I have put the scope base and rings on this gun

Any base screws to long, protruding into the chamber area?

Body die. I have noticed I can not use the Sheridan case gauge to check my .223 rounds loaded with these Sierra bullets, or any match kings I have tried. The case head stands proud, bullet is getting hung up.

This gauge checks neck diameter of a loaded round. A bushing (mine) doesn't size all the way to the shoulder. This bulge in the neck, may not fit this gauge?

Did the shell holder make full contact with the die, when sizing, at the top of the stroke?
Will a sized case chamber?

Seen a Savage Creedmore that would not chamber Hornady factory ammo. Savage made adjustment to the rifle.

 

[243winxb]

the 53 grain is giving me trouble.

OAL should be 2.200" per Hodgdon data.

The OAL getting longer on extraction, is a sign of low neck tension. A smaller bushing may be needed? .244"

Measure the neck diameter before and after seating a bullet. After seating , has the neck expanded .002" or more?

 

[RussellC]

Any base screws to long, protruding into the chamber area?


This gauge checks neck diameter of a loaded round. A bushing (mine) doesn't size all the way to the shoulder. This bulge in the neck, may not fit this gauge?

Did the shell holder make full contact with the die, when sizing, at the top of the stroke?
Will a sized case chamber?

Seen a Savage Creedmore that would not chamber Hornady factory ammo. Savage made adjustment to the rifle.

I will check the base screws. Remove base retry, etc. as to the gauge, I have noticed this regardless of the die used. The Sierra match kings just dont work in the Sheridan gauge. I can see (gauge has a cut out) where the bullet binds.

As to the shell holder, yes, the body die is the Redding Competition body die, along with the Redding Competition shell holders. You adjust how much bump of shoulder by which shell holder, each one a couple thousandths differences. Set for some cam-over.

Either a base screw or its the chamber doesnt like the Sierra bullets. Anyone with the 12FV out there?

Russellc

 

[243winxb]

The bullets bearing surface has an effect on OAL. I dont like the Sierra plastic tip bullet, to long, with little adjustment in OAL in a 223 Rem.

 

[RussellC]

I haven't tried any of the plastic tipped one. Just the BTHP 69 gr. SMK, the 53 grain HP SMK and the 52 grain BTHP SMK.

Russellc

 

[Blue68f100]

I shoot all of those bullets from Sierra SMK's. My new min spec chamber would chamber the 69gr and 52gr HPBT SMK's, 65gr SBT's but the 53 gr were setting about 0.035" proud on the Lyman case gauge. Since I machined this barrel, I decided to cut the leads a little deeper so I would not have to have ammo specifically for it. I purchased a reamer specifically for doing this. This barrel had very deep rifling, 0.2185" required the use of a 0.2183" pilot. On my other AR's there are several bullet profiles that require me to shorten the OAL for them to chamber. This is not a problem since you are working up loads. Just remember to check for clearance on ALL the different bullets you plan to shoot.

 

[RussellC]

I think something is wrong with my chamber. I guess I could send it back to Savage, or just buy a better barrel. I will wait for more input, but it just seems to short.

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

Does this "reaming" affect accuracy?

Russellc

 

[243winxb]

Before you do anything, buy and shoot some factory ammo. Sorry about the bold print. Does that when i cutmand paste.

Federal Premium Gold Medal Ammunition 223 Remington 69 Grain Sierra MatchKing Hollow Point Boat Tail.

 

[RussellC]

Well, bizarre update. Not having any 69 grain SMK on hand, I unloaded one and used it to make a dummy round. Set to 2.260, closed bolt, opened ( no sticking or dragging) and it held 2.260. I guess it is the smaller ones giving the problem. I think I will set away from the loading bench for a spell.

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

To add insult to injury on my ignorance, I just set it to 2.300 and it opened and closed no friction, no shortening of oal. While the 2.260 version even fit in the sheridan gauge, the 2.300 did not....

Guess the problem is with the lighter ones. The 53 grain set to 2.20 fit fine, open and close bolt, no shrinkage.

 

[243winxb]

Makes gauges look about useless. The chamber is the final judge.

I suggest you do not do this, but i did it before, so why not again.
This may result in a stuck dummy round or broke off bolt handle. I took 2 scrap FL sized brass, placed a Sierra 53 gr flat base bullet just lightly into the case neck, nose first. Locked the bolt down, pushing the bullet into the case. Taking a measurement from case head to bullet face is 1.965" Rifle Savage Axis 223.

 

[RussellC]

Makes gauges look about useless. The chamber is the final judge.

I suggest you do not do this, but i did it before, so why not again. View attachment 763190
This may result in a stuck dummy round or broke off bolt handle. I took 2 scrap FL sized brass, placed a Sierra 53 gr flat base bullet just lightly into the case neck, nose first. Locked the bolt down, pushing the bullet into the case. Taking a measurement from case head to bullet face is 1.965" Rifle Savage Axis 223.

That may be the exact bullet that gives me the most grief. It is a 53 grain Sierra HP, it is FB, and it is not a match king. Is this the same bullet? Now to show further my ignorance, what does this show? The 1.965" measurement corresponds to what measurement of the chamber? (Sorry, you have to remember, the only long guns I am familiar with are AR15s!)

Thanks,

Russellc

 

[243winxb]

Same bullet. The 1.965" (from case head to rifling) gives me a general idea of throat erosion now and in the future. The test bullet is "jammed" into the rifling. This reading is different/shorter then when soft seating and measuring to the bullet ogive.

The SAAMI measurement is 1.857" from case head to rifling. Different rifle, different measurement, but should be close.

Looks like both of yours will chamber now, with the shorter OAL.

Your new to rifles, so your learning. It all good fun.

 

[Blue68f100]

Sierra has a HPFB-M in 53 gr, and a 52 gr that's HPBT-M both are MatchKings. I've shot both but the BT shot better in my gun.

Your gun has what is know as a min spec chamber. For the most part most of the bullets will load according to book. There will be a few bullets that you will need to run a shorter length. It's the lighter ones that have a more blunt ogive that will cause problems.

There are a bunch of different 223R chamber reamers. Where the most of the difference is to how much free bore, throat angle ... A min spec normally has a 0.025" free bore where a std chamber is around 0.050"-0.060". This is a juggling act. If you increase the free bore your jump to lands will be longer for the ones already good. You need to decide what will be your primary bullet and set it up for that. For me I have a min spec chamber in one of my AR's. I just shorten the OAL when I'm working up my loads. When ever I get a new gun/barrel I check to see where the bullet contacts the rifling in all the bullets I shoot. The barrel I machined had an unusually tight rifling. So in order to shoot the same ammo in both I just reamed the Free bore/throat angle so it would match my other chamber.

In your case if you have a twist rate of 1:9 or faster I would keep it where it's at. Since these faster rifling are for shooting heavier bullets. They can still shoot the lighter ones you just have to check for your max OAL.

 

[Captcurt]

I load 270 for a friend's Savage. It also has a short throat. I shoot a Ruger with the same bullet and there is .020" difference in OAL. I would find the maximum length touching the leades for each bullet and back it off .010.

 

[RussellC]

Sierra has a HPFB-M in 53 gr, and a 52 gr that's HPBT-M both are MatchKings. I've shot both but the BT shot better in my gun.

Your gun has what is know as a min spec chamber. For the most part most of the bullets will load according to book. There will be a few bullets that you will need to run a shorter length. It's the lighter ones that have a more blunt ogive that will cause problems.

There are a bunch of different 223R chamber reamers. Where the most of the difference is to how much free bore, throat angle ... A min spec normally has a 0.025" free bore where a std chamber is around 0.050"-0.060". This is a juggling act. If you increase the free bore your jump to lands will be longer for the ones already good. You need to decide what will be your primary bullet and set it up for that. For me I have a min spec chamber in one of my AR's. I just shorten the OAL when I'm working up my loads. When ever I get a new gun/barrel I check to see where the bullet contacts the rifling in all the bullets I shoot. The barrel I machined had an unusually tight rifling. So in order to shoot the same ammo in both I just reamed the Free bore/throat angle so it would match my other chamber.

In your case if you have a twist rate of 1:9 or faster I would keep it where it's at. Since these faster rifling are for shooting heavier bullets. They can still shoot the lighter ones you just have to check for your max OAL.

I believe you are right on the money. Yes, it is a 1/9.

Russellc

 

[horsey300]

I beieve you are right on the money. Yes, it is a 1/9.

Russellc

The 53 is more blunt on the ogive than the 69, that's the trouble you're hitting, 2 different bullets 2 different oals good luck pardner.

 

[Axis II]

I have a savage axis heavy barrel in 223rem and i have the same issue as the OP. Hornady v max calls for 2.250 and anything over 2.235 im into the lands, I can even fire certain factory ammo. I had to send the rifle to savage for a bad extractor/ejector and asked the gunsmith about the chamber being short and was told if i reloading he wouldn't mess with it just work the load up with the shorter OAL that it might effect my accuracy.