Does a bullet really need to reach the "vitals"

[444]

"Counting on blood loss to create the needed stop is not a good idea."

You clearly missed the point. There isn't much else to count on. You can try for a brain shot with a high probability of missing, or you can count on blood loss by shooting at the biggest target available. There is no magic involved. That is why George took the time to type that very informative post.
Your choice. Make it wisely.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"There isn't much else to count on."

And that's exactly why you need bullets that will penetrate deeply into the intended target so that they have a greater chance of disrupting major arteries and veins, and even the heart.

Platt likely could have lived for upwards 20 minutes with the damage to the pulmonary artery slowly bleeding him out.

The fact that he was moving fast for a considerable period of time after he was wounded, with a highly elevated heart rate, made him bleed out a lot faster than he otherwise would have.

Moral of the story is choose bullets that penetrate deeply.

If there's a choice between penetration and expansion, take penetration.

And finally, put multiple hits on target.

 

[sm]

Does a bullet really need to reach the "vitals"

In a word, yes.

Define "vitals".

I have seen the guy , whom lived when he stuck a .357 in the roof of his mouth and fired. Besides the psych stuff, he will need some facial surgery.
The guy whom had a .25 ACP shot in the nostril DRT.
Lady bled out when carotid hit, same for the kid hit in femoral artery.

My point is penetration , to me, is the key. To stop a immediate threat, I mean stopping, not allowing an injured person to continue "I'm in fear of my life" to you the victim. Bullets do weird stuff , in my observations they do not follow what "they're supposed to do" according to "what the printed word or picture" said.

I know 2 COM, 1 to head is the "norm". I have no problem if in fear my life and attacker has a heavy coat, or motorcycle helment in going for pelvis/femoral/knee, or the neck for the carotid. I'm gonna want BG stopped doing what is being done. IMO/ IME

 

[Newton]

In the hopes of not de-railing my own thread......

From the official history of the F-104:

"History: In 1954, the Lockheed Company's famed designer, Kelly Johnson, created a new single-seat fighter design for use in the Korean conflict by the US Air Force."

My notes - Johnson requested feedback from Saber pilots in Korea who all complained that they were unable to get up to altitude fast enough and had an inadequate service ceiling compared to the higher flying MiG 15. The F-104 was the result, and unfortunately, it was supposed to be able to mix it up with the MiGs, in the hands of an experienced pilot, the aircraft was able to make a fight of it in the vertical plane, lateral combat manouevers could rarely be completed in the confines of a single nation however

The FMJ's from its 20mm rotary cannon certainly did not lack penetration though

 

[Obiwan]

Some here make it sound like you have to choose between expansion and penetration.

That is simply not true.

The best bullet designs give you adequate penetration along with expansion.

To use small words....deep wide holes that bleed like crazy.

 

[Tim Burke]

The best bullet designs give you adequate penetration along with expansion.

Not in 32 and 9X17, and that was what prompted the initial question.
In 9X19 and up, you should be able to get both.

 

[agtman]

A good civil discussion thus far.

"In 9X19 and up, you should be able to get both [penetration and expansion]."


Not necessarily in 9mm - the much debated Miami incident being one example.

As others have noted, you want penetration first, then expansion. A HP that expands perfectly but underpenetrates can get you (the good guy) killed.

You want penetration in as large a caliber diameter as is practicable, preferably one using a heavy projectile, one which you can shoot accurately under stress.

If the round expands in textbook fashion, that's fine. And many, perhaps most, of today's quality HP designs (e.g., Gold Dots, Golden Sabers) can be expected to do so, given specified velocities. This was something that was sometimes "hit-or-miss" with older HP designs only 15-20 years ago (no pun intended).

However, as Agent Patrick points out in his article cited in my first post, proper expansion can never be guaranteed given the many other factors and variables at work in any "wounding ballistics" scenario. For any hope of instant incapacitation, you must absolutely have sufficient penetration by a preferably large and weighty bullet into the region of a BG's vital organ(s) - even if it fails to mushroom.

 

[Obiwan]

Excellent point Tim...I don't expect much of either in .380 and below.

 

[444]

We can sum this whole thing up with one sentence:
They don't call 'em vital for nuthin.