Does anyone know when Mauser stopped making rifles in the White..

[indy1919a4]

Mauser produced the wonderful Argentine m-1909, they made the rifle in the white, with a white receiver and bolt. Does anyone know of later Mausers that were also produced in the white.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Interesting question. I question whether the 'white' receiver is a strictly date-based thing -- I tend to think of it as a finish option your military could choose or not. I also have tended to think of it as a WWI-era factory finish that tended to be lost during arsenal or sporter reworks. I'll freely admit this I hasn't really occurred to me before.

If you don't get a solid answer here, you could see whether you can work it out from the information in this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Mauser-Milit...=sr_1_3?keywords=mauser&qid=1576943226&sr=8-3

 

[whatnickname]

Hadn’t thought about that much either. I have seen some WWI vintage Mausers in the white. What I have seen on military surplus is manufacturing corners being cut by both the Germans and Japanese on rifles that appeared to have been made toward the end of WWII. My conclusion is that as they were losing the war there was a significant amount of pressure being placed in their infrastructure to turn out higher quantities of anything that would shoot. The late WWII rifles made by the Axis powers were pretty rough affairs when it came to fit and finish. Although I never saw any of the late WWII Mausers or Type 99 service rifles in the white. The Browning Hi-Powers that were made in Belgium in WWII were made by slave labor and are notorious for being of lower quality when it came to fit and finish. I have read that some of these were rigged to blow on firing but I have never been able to confirm that. Kind of difficult to put much pride in your work if you’re a slave. Based on what I’ve seen and read my guess is that the WWI rifles that showed up in the white were production short cuts because the war was going badly. Unfortunately the majority of the folks that could answer that question are dead and gone now. Kind of sad in a way. This is a valuable piece of history that we may have lost for ever.

 

[indy1919a4]

You have your WW I German GEW 98.. All made in the White... So that brings the date to 1918..




Then you have those wonderful FN 1924s made for Mexico in 7mm so now were are in the 1920s.



And this in the white coloring is more a fashion statement then say and expedient statement.. Great example of Whitish coloring
in the later years for expediency sake is the Phosphate finish towards the end of the Second World War. That Phosphate finish is not the
one I am looking at.. But a very valid point.

 

[indy1919a4]

Interesting question. I question whether the 'white' receiver is a strictly date-based thing -- I tend to think of it as a finish option your military could choose or not. I also have tended to think of it as a WWI-era factory finish that tended to be lost during arsenal or sporter reworks. I'll freely admit this I hasn't really occurred to me before.

If you don't get a solid answer here, you could see whether you can work it out from the information in this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Mauser-Milit...=sr_1_3?keywords=mauser&qid=1576943226&sr=8-3

They made Mausers in the Blue I.E the Turk Mausers before they were making them for the Germany in the White. So this is more a fashion statement.. Per the Great and Powerful Ball Mauser book, (all hail Ball) it may have it, but I have not found it yet. Its coverage is more episodic vs linear.

 

[22250Rem]

I've always been interested in this topic; mainly because I know so little about it. I can recall different Mauser models with bolts & receivers "in the white" but don't know when doing that was stopped. I still don't understand what "in the white" really is and I've had a Mauser like that for over 25 years. A 1908 Brazilian 7x57; The contract date was 1908 so they were made by DWM in Germany for a few years after that to complete the contract. This thread already has in the white Mausers up into the 1920's so that's not really relevant. Just curious as to what that "in the white" process was and how did they do it ? Here's a few shots of that in the white 1908 Brazilian receiver.

 

[indy1919a4]

[QUOTE="22250Rem, post: 11328256, member: 158684" A 1908 Brazilian 7x57; The contract date was 1908 so they were made by DWM in Germany for a few years after that to complete the contract. This thread already has in the white Mausers up into the 1920's so that's not really relevant. View attachment 879296 View attachment 879297 View attachment 879298[/QUOTE]

Sir It is never not relevant to show photos of a fine Brazilian mauser..

 

[Gordon]

Personally I think that was a way they showed the high nickel content in the steel which was highly vaunted at the time . Lots of US manufacturers printing "special nickle steel" on their barrels.. These "in the white" old Mauser receivers, especially the 1909 don't rust easily normally !

 

[22250Rem]

That 1908 Brazilian has even been out in damp weather and never showed any signs of rusting. Although it gets a good wipe down regularly. So is it the high nickel content that does it ?

Sir It is never not relevant to show photos of a fine Brazilian mauser..

..... Thanks for the compliment but although it looks good in the pictures, they don't tell the whole story. The bore isn't pitted but it shows that it's had enough rounds through it to show a good deal of wear on the lands, although it still shoots good. I still don't understand "in the white" and can recall seeing old Mausers like that when I was a kid and thinking that they were chrome plated. Don't recall any rusted ones so that finish seems to have some positive aspects to it.

 

[shoobe01]

Personally I think that was a way they showed the high nickel content in the steel which was highly vaunted at the time . Lots of US manufacturers printing "special nickle steel" on their barrels.. These "in the white" old Mauser receivers, especially the 1909 don't rust easily normally !

I have always wondered, and this being a thread about it, that almost answered it. Is this a pre-stainless gun thing? We have such neat metallurgy, we don't need to finish it.

 

[Gordon]

I have always wondered, and this being a thread about it, that almost answered it. Is this a pre-stainless gun thing? We have such neat metallurgy, we don't need to finish it.

I personally believe it is exactly that. I have no proof but all the German and Swedish Mausers that did that don't seem to have rust problems, try stripping the finish on the receiver of other makes and see what happens after a brief period of time ! Also I have been told by old guys with blueing tanks that Rust Blue finishes on 1909 Mausers is a bit difficult.

 

[22250Rem]

I'm still puzzled about this topic but could it be that the process is too expensive and/or time consuming for modern production ? However they did that, it's very nice looking and durable and doesn't even rust easily. Perhaps it really was a pre-stainless gun thing; then, when stainless steel became more common, it became another old fashioned process that became obsolete or not economically feasible.

 

[Alaskan Ironworker]

I also have noticed swedish mausers being quite rust resistant. I always assumed it was the copper content, as the non refinished specimens I have seen have a dark brownish almost green patina. This is all based on conjecture, though I've had mine by the ocean a few times, montague island, and never had a rust issue, not a single spot. I thought the term “in the white” only meant nothing was done to the steel at all after machining and polishing, or in other words, raw clean steel.

 

[Alaskan Ironworker]

Heres a couple pics of an 1894 Oberndorf produced swedish mauser parts gun I have with the odd patina. Off topic sorry.

 

[22250Rem]

I thought the term “in the white” only meant nothing was done to the steel at all after machining and polishing, or in other words, raw clean steel.

.............. That's what I was led to believe many years ago but apparently that's not the case. After all these years my question is still; " How the heck did they do that ???"......Is it the metallurgy ?, ( high nickel content has been mentioned; could that do it ? ), Is it some sort of surface finishing trick ? Seems as though raw steel would be more rust prone.

 

[boom boom]

@Slamfire has done extensive research into the metallurgy of the turn of the century which includes Mausers. Not trying to speak for him but more or less Mausers of the pre-and WWI era were made with plain carbon steel. Now, it turns out that the iron ores to make the steel for Mausers of the era in Germany often came from Sweden and that ore has some interesting trace elements in it that the metallurgy at the time was too crude to detect. See Hatcher's Notebook, on page 230, for GEW 98 assay.

To the best of my recollection in that era, nickel steels were only used by the British due to Cordite erosion in their SMLE's and in the later P14/m1917 series rifles. Late in WWI, about August 1918 by some accounts, Rock Island switched to nickel steels (sn 319,000 +) but I believe that Springfield Armory did not until post WWI in the late 1920's as they switched to double heat treatment instead in late WWI. Of course, I believe that commercial manufacturers such as Winchester, etc. switched some rifles pre WWI to nickel steel. http://www.vishooter.net/m1903.html

I have no idea on Carcano, Mosin-Nagant, French Lebels or Berthiers, and Mannlicher m95 steel used by Austria. If you can read Russian, a Gunboards guy posted this regarding Mosin metallurgy in 1930 https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?588977-Mosin-Nagant-metallurgy The rest of the metallurgy would be in Italian, Russian, French, or German as it were but I suspect that they all used carbon steels as steel production was just coming to terms with more modern alloys and their heat treatment requirements.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

@Slamfire has done extensive research into the metallurgy of the turn of the century which includes Mausers. Not trying to speak for him but more or less Mausers of the pre-and WWI era were made with plain carbon steel.

This is my understanding as well. The Mauser 98 bolt and receiver was originally designed for manufacture from low-to-medium carbon steels with a case-hardened surface and comparatively soft core (Kuhnhausen, Mauser Shop Manual, page 41.)

I'm also given to understand that some case hardening processes improve resistance to surface corrosion, the 'coined' finish popular on British shotguns being a common example. Could the secret behind the 'white' Mauser receivers be something this simple -- a polished case-hardened surface?

 

[Gordon]

It could be a polished and cased surface BUT I'm betting Nickle or other non rusting metal content as the darm things are hard to rust in the case of the 1909 at least . Every case hardened gun I have is a rust magnet and I have to keep on top of them, Carburizing of a different sort maybe, like silver Nitride hardening then polished

 

[gillmeister692]

Heres a couple pics of an 1894 Oberndorf produced swedish mauser parts gun I have with the odd patina. Off topic sorry.

I can't follow your thinking. Your Oberndorf 1894 receiver isn't in-the-white at all. It's blued.

 

[Alaskan Ironworker]

I was just pointing out that The blueing appears oddly brownish, not from old grease or cozmoline. Also where the blueing is worn on my other swede, it doesnt seem to rust easily, even near the ocean.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

I was just pointing out that The blueing appears oddly brownish, not from old grease or cozmoline. Also where the blueing is worn on my other swede, it doesnt seem to rust easily, even near the ocean.

Since there are several holes D/Ted into the receiver, one possibility for the off color could be an uneven cold blue application. Some steel alloys just don't cooperate with bluing compounds, e.g. early Ruger purple SA frames.

 

[boom boom]

This is my understanding as well. The Mauser 98 bolt and receiver was originally designed for manufacture from low-to-medium carbon steels with a case-hardened surface and comparatively soft core (Kuhnhausen, Mauser Shop Manual, page 41.)

I'm also given to understand that some case hardening processes improve resistance to surface corrosion, the 'coined' finish popular on British shotguns being a common example. Could the secret behind the 'white' Mauser receivers be something this simple -- a polished case-hardened surface?

Interesting explanation. You could very well be right as the German people were and are very functional in design. I also think that the rust bluing at the time might have taken too long and consumed resources for the Germans who needed m98 rifles to replace the older GEW 88's asap. Pre-WWI, the French and the Germans were poised for war during those years and these nations about stumbled into it several times before 1914 including the Algiciras Conference over a crisis in 1905 over Morocco and the Panther gunboat crisis involving the same country in 1911.

 

[boom boom]

I was just pointing out that The blueing appears oddly brownish, not from old grease or cozmoline. Also where the blueing is worn on my other swede, it doesnt seem to rust easily, even near the ocean.

Some bluing for whatever reason can develop browning just as browning and bluing are cousins depending on the chemicals involved in controlled rusting into an iron oxide.

From what I recall reading, and I may have posted this previously, is that Swedish iron ore is very high quality magnetite which is low in sulfur, proper amount of silicon, and has trace minerals like copper and vanadium that are not always present. Both the Brits and the Germans used Swedish iron ore for firearms as did the U.S. for Krag production. That being said, I have somewhere in my project bin a formerly rusted and pitted Swedish made Mauser 96 receiver that I have considered using for a .22 Short rifle single shot conversion because I hate to throw anything out. So m96 receivers can and do rust apparently.