Varminterror
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The world is a lot bigger than you might imagine, and time didn't start yesterday.
Does brass fired in my chamber make more accurate reloads?
- Thread starter westernrover
- Start date
The world is a lot bigger than you might imagine, and time didn't start yesterday.
Yes, tried one, same issue as with straight neck sizing dies. That issue is cases that stop fitting the chamber. Neck sizing, or neck sizing with "bump" does not give better accuracy than properly full sized cases using bushings/mandrels, and I can fire those cases a great many times with more consistency from loading to loading, without any fit/chambering issues.
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I made the move from neck sizing with shoulder bump with a Niel Jones hand die to FL sizing with bushing style sizers in Registered Benchrest Matches. I don't know anyone anymore who neck sizes in any fashion in true Benchrest.
M two 6 PPC FL bushing style sizers.
This gun will tell you if there is a slight difference in accuracy between methods.
I lost an aggregate by .0012 once. Small differences counts in Benchrest.
M two 6 PPC FL bushing style sizers.
This gun will tell you if there is a slight difference in accuracy between methods.
I lost an aggregate by .0012 once. Small differences counts in Benchrest.
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Varminterror
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I so badly want an excuse to build a 22 PPC... I know I shouldn't, but I SO BADLY want to...
But to the point of the thread...
All we need with our sized ammo is for the case to 1) have consistent and concentric presentation of the bullet to the bore, 2) have consistent internal capacity, 3) have consistent grip on and subsequently offer consistent release of the bullet. We WANT cases to last a long time, so we WANT relatively little brass movement during firing and subsequent resizing, so we don't want our dies to be too much smaller in any dimension than our chambers, and to promote #1, we can't have TOO much free clearance in a few critical places - but overall, tapered cases with conical shoulders and proper free neck clearance should center themselves to the chamber axis and present the bullet coaxially to the bore. It's not really that complicated beyond that.
Competitive formats went away from neck-sizing only because it's not actually better for accuracy. Guys broke all of the records set by neck sized ammo, and guys beat the dudes who were neck-sizing only, and competitors remembered why they shouldn't only neck size. It was a fad for a while, and for some reason it hangs on based on individual anecdotes like a low volume shooter needing 8yrs to put 10 firings on a set of brass... A lot of the credit for popularizing neck-sizing only is given to McMillan's world record in the early 1970's and it DID stand for a long time. But it WAS beaten - and by a guy who was full length sizing. And it's not just ONE record out there which defines "what is most accurate" - there are a whole lot of records being held for various rifle classes and distances, and many of them are getting broken repeatedly as time goes on, and matches are getting won and lost every weekend. If only sizing necks was the route to best accuracy, every precision shooting sport would do it.
***I'll admit, I didn't know until today that Stinnett's 30 Stewart is/was a 6.5 Grendel variant, albeit not surprising, knowing what the PPC case can do, but I find it kinda interesting, since so many folks joke about the "30 grendel" potentially becoming popular, displacing 7.62x39 simply because a market is fickle, but hey, when a 30 grendel holds the "unbeatable record," maybe it's a thing...
But to the point of the thread...
All we need with our sized ammo is for the case to 1) have consistent and concentric presentation of the bullet to the bore, 2) have consistent internal capacity, 3) have consistent grip on and subsequently offer consistent release of the bullet. We WANT cases to last a long time, so we WANT relatively little brass movement during firing and subsequent resizing, so we don't want our dies to be too much smaller in any dimension than our chambers, and to promote #1, we can't have TOO much free clearance in a few critical places - but overall, tapered cases with conical shoulders and proper free neck clearance should center themselves to the chamber axis and present the bullet coaxially to the bore. It's not really that complicated beyond that.
Competitive formats went away from neck-sizing only because it's not actually better for accuracy. Guys broke all of the records set by neck sized ammo, and guys beat the dudes who were neck-sizing only, and competitors remembered why they shouldn't only neck size. It was a fad for a while, and for some reason it hangs on based on individual anecdotes like a low volume shooter needing 8yrs to put 10 firings on a set of brass... A lot of the credit for popularizing neck-sizing only is given to McMillan's world record in the early 1970's and it DID stand for a long time. But it WAS beaten - and by a guy who was full length sizing. And it's not just ONE record out there which defines "what is most accurate" - there are a whole lot of records being held for various rifle classes and distances, and many of them are getting broken repeatedly as time goes on, and matches are getting won and lost every weekend. If only sizing necks was the route to best accuracy, every precision shooting sport would do it.
***I'll admit, I didn't know until today that Stinnett's 30 Stewart is/was a 6.5 Grendel variant, albeit not surprising, knowing what the PPC case can do, but I find it kinda interesting, since so many folks joke about the "30 grendel" potentially becoming popular, displacing 7.62x39 simply because a market is fickle, but hey, when a 30 grendel holds the "unbeatable record," maybe it's a thing...
jmorris
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The stuff I load for anything in a given caliber that would be the case; however, if I am loading for a particular rifle, I get the longest case life with a bolt that will only drop half way. The other half of bolt closure actually has the case under compression.
I’ll stop short of making absolute statements of particular methods always working/not working. I have one .22 Hornet barrel that shoots best with only the portion of the neck the bullet is seated into, sized. The rest of the case stays “blow out”. I didn’t know that until I tried it, after all of the other methods that generally work, did not….so, maybe.
NMexJim
Member
I was going to stay out of this conversation because I'm mostly in agreement w/ Walk and Varmint on precision rifles and custom dies. But, my thoughts have come back to these threads as I believe that folks might get the idea that trying to wring accuracy from a factory rifle might be futile. One would be very lucky (think PowerBall) to get anything looking like a 1/4 inch shooter, but you just may get one with reliability under 1". Fred Sinclair often wrote about improving factory rifle accuracy. That was the base of his business back in the '70s.
In the good o days, I've worked with my own and with friend's factory rifles, and I've seen where most responded to accuracy improvement efforts. And it didn't cost a fortune. I'm attaching an article from Shooting Times that pretty much outline the efforts taken with those guns.
7 Proven Ways to Improve Rifle Accuracy - Shooting Times
However, I will say that I've also seen a couple that were sold off because accuracy did not respond well enough to these efforts.
In regards to full-length resizing, well, I don't agree that shoulder bump only comes when the die fully meets the ram.
It's fortunate that competitive demand has caused OEMs to build more accurate rifles these days. More accurate action/barrel fit, bedded actions, etc. have all helped.
In the good o days, I've worked with my own and with friend's factory rifles, and I've seen where most responded to accuracy improvement efforts. And it didn't cost a fortune. I'm attaching an article from Shooting Times that pretty much outline the efforts taken with those guns.
7 Proven Ways to Improve Rifle Accuracy - Shooting Times
However, I will say that I've also seen a couple that were sold off because accuracy did not respond well enough to these efforts.
In regards to full-length resizing, well, I don't agree that shoulder bump only comes when the die fully meets the ram.
It's fortunate that competitive demand has caused OEMs to build more accurate rifles these days. More accurate action/barrel fit, bedded actions, etc. have all helped.
Bcwitt
Member
Ive heard of guys indexing the case in chamber. Ive never tried it.
rondaxe
Member
I'm no expert on anything,(just ask my wife), but YouTube is your friend in this case. There are plenty of F Class shooters, Eric Cortina comes to mind, with videos that will help.
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