Does caliber even matter??

[Nomad]

IMO you should pick whatever platform you like and trust and then the largest caliber you can shoot well. I shoot a 1911 .45 ACP in USPSA for Limited 10 and do fine with it. I also shoot a 40 S&W as a limited. I shoot the 45 as well or better than a 40 but then I practice. My wife shoots a 9mm because she dosen't shoot the 45 well and doesn't practice. For her the 9mm is the largest caliber she shoots well. To each his own but if I knew I was going to be in a gun fight tonight I'd have my paws wrapped around a 1911 in 45 ACP with one 10 rd mag in and two 10 rd mags for backup.

 

[sidheshooter]

Lonestar49, what's up with the guy shooting the .40? Are those his fingers coming off or the pistol coming apart ... or what?

Looks like one of the infamous ".40 cal under-supported chamber Glock kabooms" to me!

Pretty accurate line drawing of that side plate giving it up...


---
Unless we are talking about fmj, I'd take any of the commonly issued LEO calibers, myself. Like 'em all.

 

[P30shtr]

watch the show, The First 48 on A&E and tell me caliber size matters, all the " gangstas" gettin killed by 32's, 380's, 22's whatever, they all work if yyou hit the right spot. As far as your 45acp thing goes, I'd much rather have that than a .40 but thats me. I say forty schmorty Me personally, I only own 9mm and .380

 

[HisSoldier]

The basic concept that small calibers are effective is something that is now current, 50 years ago most people believed otherwise, in America at least. Long before WW II smaller calibers were commonly considered adequate, especially in Europe.
I submit (tongue in cheek) that the Kolibri, with proper shot placement is more than adequate! http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=178159737

Just think of how many rounds you can carry in your pocket!

I just don't understand why people make such a big deal about recoil, I personally feel that the decibels and high pitch of a 9MM or 40 is harder to take than the big slow BOOM of the .45. I really think I'd rather shoot the .45 all day long than the 9MM.

That said, if I really believed there were a good chance I'd be in a gunfight I'd take my 10MM with 3 extra magazines, because noise and recoil take a distant second place to being alive after the last shot is fired. My Second choice to the 10MM is the .45 ACP, because unlike so many experts now days I still believe that big slug will do it's magic even if it doesn't open up, plus I personally find it easier to hit the target with a 1911 chambered in .45 ACP.

A .32 isn't even a consideration for me.

 

[forindooruseonly]

Except for today on the First 48. Guy got smoked by a .50 Desert Eagle. And he certainly didn't run off and leave a trail of blood like so many of the others on that show.

 

[ElectrikKoolAid]

All wider bullets do is increase bleeding for a long-term stop...

Not entirely correct. Larger bullets are heavier than smaller bullets and have the ability to penetrate obstructions with less deflection.

I worked (past-tense) as an ER nurse for many years, and I've seen "pocket-pistol" rounds deflect off the sternum and long bones.

I even once saw a 9mm that entered at an oblique angle above the ear, rode around under the skin, and stopped at the back of the skull (occipital area). The patient was treated and released within a few hours.

This particular incident makes me believe that the Holy Grail of "One Stop" handgun rounds are a myth. Like everything else, luck can play a decisive role in the encounter as much as skill and/or hardware.

I have treated many, many people who were shot and lived to tell the tale. The most complicated GSW to treat is a gut shot that perforates the bowel. Unfortunately the mortality of such wounds is hours/days later.

A heavy bullet hitting a vital support structure (like the pelvis) may drop an assailant, but won't incapacitate him if he also has a weapon. Even hitting a major blood vessel will leave an assailant conscious for a minute or (likely) much longer.

The best way to win a gun fight is to not get in one, and realize that "retreat with obvious brandishing of the weapon" constitutes a valid defensive strategy for the average guy, even if some would consider it being a wimp.

 

[GLOOB]

I remember reading somewhere that when they do the autopsy after shootings they can't tell what did the damage if its 9mm or over unless they find the bullet.

9mm or larger its all the same when it hits.

Or, it might just be in indication of how elastic, bloody, and messy the human body is to begin with, to where it's very hard to quantify the size/shape of a wound with any precision. Whadya think they do? Stick a caliper into the pulverized flesh and get an exact measurement?

 

[Shadow 7D]

Among other things, YES, how else do you get the description of x millimeter wound channel, and lets not even get onto the temporary wound channel, that may be valid with a tumbling rifle round, but not a handgun.

 

[bikerdoc]

Jeff Cooper said, "Your are outgunned only if you miss"

Find what works for you and practice.

 

[harmon rabb]

Eh, I'd say that with modern JHP's, it doesn't matter so much. That said, I always carry the largest gun I can shoot well that fits with my attire and intended activities for the day. Sometimes that means my LCP. Other times, that means my G27, or PT709.

 

[P97]

I've tried them all and settled for what the Military used for years, and would like to use again. I'm sure they don't know what's best. It just happens to be what I shoot best, and since shot placement plays the most important roll, that's what I use. Just remember if everyone thought one caliber was best, there would only be one caliber.

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Caliber matter? Not really---give me a rifle if you want to put em down for good.

If I "had" to choose one it would be the 9mm simply because it holds more shots and will do the job if you do your part--Do I plan on missing? No--but those extra shots come in real handy when the real world sets in and they start moving and shooting back or you suddenly find out there's 3 or 4 of em instead one-----carry one spare mag reload that holds twice as much as 1911 .45 or 3 times as much as a revolver-there abouts.

 

[3:00hold]

This argument is the victim of internet bravado and oversimplification. Of course caliber matters, otherwise we'd all be carrying .25s and .32s. Anyone with the same size gun can put more accurate hits on a target faster with tha .32 than with a .45. If shot placement is all that mattered, .25s would rule the roost.

Shot placement is very important, but caliber is not irrelevant.

 

[Manco]

Not entirely correct. Larger bullets are heavier than smaller bullets and have the ability to penetrate obstructions with less deflection.

I agree and have pointed this out myself a number of times in different discussions, but people usually ignore barrier penetration altogether, and some even think that it's a bad thing (even though bone can certainly be considered a barrier). I also personally consider the ubiquitous 12" penetration standard a bare minimum, and prefer to have more because one rarely sees the same performance in real shootings (at least the ones that I'm familiar with). I just wanted to keep my argument simple and mostly rhetorical.

I worked (past-tense) as an ER nurse for many years, and I've seen "pocket-pistol" rounds deflect off the sternum and long bones.

I even once saw a 9mm that entered at an oblique angle above the ear, rode around under the skin, and stopped at the back of the skull (occipital area). The patient was treated and released within a few hours.

I think this is why some people have been touting the advantages of bullet shape, of late, since it can help avoid such pitfalls that even larger calibers like 9mm can sometimes fall into.

We also have to consider how very crucial load selection is with the smaller calibers. Virtually any load in .45 ACP or .40 S&W would be fairly effective, but you can't use just any old load in .22 LR or even .32 ACP and expect to get sufficient penetration. When I talk about .22 LR being effective, I have specific loads in mind as well as optimum barrel lengths for them.

This particular incident makes me believe that the Holy Grail of "One Stop" handgun rounds are a myth. Like everything else, luck can play a decisive role in the encounter as much as skill and/or hardware.

Oh definitely, but wherever luck is involved--basically in everything--probability also plays a part, and like I said bigger calibers can give you better odds. The most important point here, however, is that the advantage is always slight with handguns--just an edge. I've been walking this fine line on this forum for quite some time now, arguing against both dismissing the differences in calibers as well as exaggerating them. It's not easy because actually quantifying the difference seems to be pretty much impossible. In my mind, for what it's worth, it's like a few percentage points (i.e. single digits) between 9mm and .40 S&W, for example, and something more significant but still not at all large between .22 LR and anything else (as long as you get enough penetration in all cases). It's definitely not nearly as important as how well one can shoot a particular caliber in a particular gun, in my opinion, and that means speed and accuracy all at once.

The best way to win a gun fight is to not get in one, and realize that "retreat with obvious brandishing of the weapon" constitutes a valid defensive strategy for the average guy, even if some would consider it being a wimp.

Exactly, and for this purpose, as well as scaring the bad guys in general, just about any gun (that is recognizably a gun) of any caliber will do.

 

[easyg]

Does caliber even matter?

Yes, caliber matters.

Humans have been shooting one another for well over two hundred years.
And in that time we humans have learned a thing or two about the effects of various calibers on the human body and the human psyche.
And this is one of the things we have learned:

Some calibers are much more effective at quickly stopping a human aggressor than other calibers.

To claim that all calibers are the same with equal shot placement is simply non-sense.

Even among the hunting community it is widely accepted that certain calibers are down right cruel to use on certain animals because they tend to wound and kill very slowly, or not even kill the animal at all.

and that is the Crux of it, I would rather pick a gun in a caliber that is capable of doing what I want to do, with a bullet design that is effective,

OK, to expand, for BUG, or deep cover, or pocket mouse, I prefer a .32, simply because I find that in such a small gun a .32 is more accurate and controllable in my hand that a .380. The reduced recoil with a 2 finger grip mean I can control the little gun, and it isn't meant for long range but rather in close.

Let's look at the "crux of it" again....

You say that you would rather pick a gun in a caliber that is capable of doing what you want it to do.
Well, what exactly do you want the gun and caliber to do?

I suspect that most folks here want a self-defense gun of a caliber that will stop a human aggressor as quick as possible, and with as few shots as possible.

And this ^^ is the problem with small weak calibers like the .22 and the .25 and the .32 and even the .380:
These calibers do not perform very well at quickly, and reliably, stopping human aggressors.

So my advice is this:
If all you can handle and shoot accurately is a .22 or a .32 then I guess that's what you'll have to go with.
It's better than nothing for sure.
But if you can accurately shoot a 9mm para or larger, then I see no good reason to choose a less capable caliber.

 

[migkillertwo]

the question is in the title, the OP is just prefacing and premising his question.

anyway, it depends on what calibers you're comparing. For instance, the difference between .45 ACP and 9mm, at least with modern guns and modern JHPs, is negligible. However sometimes it does matter. For instance, there's a big ****ing difference between .25 ACP and 9mm Luger.

 

[Fishman777]

Clair Reese article...

In the 2009 eidtion of Guns and Ammo's Complete book of Rimfires, Clair Reese had an article called "If I were a one-gun man". This gun writers choice, if he had to chose one gun, would be a .22 lr rifle. He makes a pretty good argument in this article.

In this article, he recounts how his job on the family farm was to slaughter the half ton cows. He did this with a single .22 lr shot in the forehead. Yes, a 22 lr round is capable of killing a 1000 cow with proper shot placement. Anyone that thinks that .22 lr is not an adequate stopper with proper shot placement, is ignorant. Granted, this guy did this "work" with a rifle. The velocity of a typical .22 mag handgun will be similiar or greater than what you achieve with a .22 lr rifle. If a little .22 is capable of killing a 1000 pound animal, so can any of the popular service cartridges.

 

[easyg]

Yes, a 22 lr round is capable of killing a 1000 cow with proper shot placement. Anyone that thinks that .22 lr is not an adequate stopper with proper shot placement, is ignorant. Granted, this guy did this "work" with a rifle. The velocity of a typical .22 mag handgun will be similiar or greater than what you achieve with a .22 lr rifle. If a little .22 is capable of killing a 1000 pound animal, so can any of the popular service cartridges.

Would you willingly go grizzly bear hunting, stalking on the ground, with a .22LR revolver?

 

[BlayGlock]

My favorite gun to shoot is a 9mm 1911. Little recoil, cheap to reload, and I convinced that Speer 124gr JHP +P will stop a bad guy if I do my part.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Caliber is important, to a point. With calibers/cartridges below .380, you can still place your shot(s) correctly but have the bullet fail to penetrate deeply enough or be deflected off course to reach vital organ(s). The chances of this happening are greatly reduced with 9mm Luger and up for pistols, .38 Spl. for revolvers.

 

[valorius]

To me caliber isn't even a tertiary consideration.

IMO, stopping power is determined by:

1) Survival drive in your quarry
2) Shot placement
3) Bullet Selection
4) Caliber

 

[Shadow 7D]

I don't disagree with you Harangure, and I understand that there is a trade off, that requires a change in tactics, and you have to be willing to work/deal with it's weakness.

Now that being said, the .32 was considered a good enough caliber for many years in Europe, and if it didn't have a place, there wouldn't be guns made in it or people buying them.

Valorius, I agree that those are considerations, but the firearm, caliber and bullet/ammo are all the same selection, you are looking for a weapon system, rather, you don't say I want a spire point in .22 (JK), take my .32 I carry FMJ in it because 1) they work reliably, 2) penetrate a little more.

EasyG:

and that is the Crux of it, I would rather pick a gun in a caliber that is capable of doing what I want to do, with a bullet design that is effective,

Please don't say that I would go bear hunting with a .22 (I would if it was a black, and my buddy had my back with a 12ga. I never said all calibers are the same, when I was explaining my question, rather that the pissing contest between .40 and 9mm, the cult of .45 etc. don't really matter, as they all work, within their limits.

Allow me to explain, I have a P40, one of the few products that I will say KT designed a lemon. It isn't that KT's suck, if they did, I'm pretty sure the KT P40 would be the gun to blow up like a glock (it's ok, I don't hate them, just pointing out that even Gaston can make a poor design every once in a while)

I can shoot a P11 fine, but in .40 what is alot of power in a small (and light) package becomes more than I can control. I like the concept, and if I took lots of time, and only shot it when fresh, and went to the gym, I am sure that I could eventually handle that gun. BUT, I would never carry it now, because I know that I can't do double taps, or even quick fire, without the gun stove piping from me limp wristing.

I carry a .32 because I am out alot with toddlers and their mothers, this means I can't be batman, and the gun really can't be on my belt as little hands, and feet when I pick them up, eventually end up there. I could change my habits, instead I carry a .32, why, because for the size and weight, which make it so easy to carry, in .380 I find it to be more snappy and harder for my big hands to shoot. The .32 is a poor second to a combat caliber, but, for my situation it fits the bill, I don't go unarmed.

If I was going somewhere I considered especially dangerous, yes I carry more, but at the park etc. with the kids, I feel comfortable with what I carry.


and that is the Crux of it, I would rather pick a gun in a caliber that is capable of doing what I want to do, with a bullet design that is effective. I'm not bear hunting, I'm not going to war.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Oh, and I do believe in one shot stops
they can be achieved with a 8ga or larger, using adequate ammunition

 

[C-grunt]

being a cop I have seen a few shootings. What I have learned is that placement and plain old luck are more important than caliber.

I have also learned that a handgun round will deflect off the skull very easily. Also the bones of the face and jaw can stop even a large caliber handgun.

Recently had a drug deal go bad and one of the guys get shot. The 45ACP Golden Saber hit just above his right eye, deflected down and came out his cheek. Then entered his chest near his collar bone. The round then went through a lung, deflected off a rib, shot accross his stomach area and lodged near his left hip.

When we showed up he had walked to a nearby store, about 25 yards, and was still conscious. He lived but apparently is in bad shape.

Same area had a lady kill herself with a single .22 through the heart with a small revolver. Dropped dead where she stood.

Had another guy accidentally shoot his girlfriend in the head with a .22 lorcin/Raven. Round entered just below the nose, missed all the face bones, and lodged in her spine. She almost died but was still conscious when they drove into the ER.

What Im trying to say is that any handgun can kill you very easily. Also dont expect even heavy calibers to just "plow through" bones and such because its not a given, Ill even go as far to say its more the exception not the rule, especially if you hit at an angle.

The human body is incedibly resilient and can take huge amounts of damage. But if you damage some key components, its also remarkabley frail as well.

All (reasonable)handguns are weak and rifles trump all.

 

[C-grunt]

Oh, and I do believe in one shot stops
they can be achieved with a 8ga or larger, using adequate ammunition

The 25mm HE out of the Bradley is the only for sure one shot stop I have seen. A shot to the foot, or nearby on the ground, and its a closed casket funeral.