Bigger and smaller than standard calibers?

[Skribs]

This is kind of a fun thread, kind of a question. When I think of a standard service caliber, three typically come to mind, as I think they do to most people: 9x19, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. There are others that people use for self defense, including a couple bottlenecked cartridges and the 10mm, but what the 9, .40, and .45 have in common is they are all straight-walled cases and they scale more on caliber than on length (.45 slightly excepted), which basically leads to the bigger hole vs. more capacity/less recoil debate.

I'm wondering what there is, and if there's a future for, expanding in the other directions, with a .30 and a .50, to further the range of capacity vs. bore.

On the smaller end, we have the 5.7mm, but that is a unique option and has a lot of disadvantages, in this case I'm mainly looking at the noise, the fact that the velocity limits the potential practice ranges (as in where you can go to shoot, some pistol ranges have FPS limits below the 5.7mm bullet's velocity), and the length of the cartridge. There's the 7.62 tokarev which I don't see offering more capacity than 9mm, and the .32 ACP which is regarded as anemic.

On this end, I'm wondering if something straight-walled and a bit longer than .32 ACP, with a heavier bullet and more power behind it, might work. Be a bit of an oddball caliber, but it would offer capacity over a 9.

On the other end, I haven't really seen anything except for .50 GI that fits the bigger-than-.45 option, and goes as big bore as you legally can while maintaining decent controllability and acceptable penetration. However, this round fills a niche that a lot of people jokingly want ("why do you carry a .45?" "because they don't make a .50") but it seems to be fairly unpopular. I'm wondering if this is because it is proprietary or what, but I think it brings something new to the table, and wonder what the future of the round is...or if possibly another .50 will rise up and take over.

Just some thoughts I had. It would be interesting if the 9 and .45 were no longer the ends of the caliber war spectrum, but two more stops in the middle between ".30 long pistol" and ".50 big boy" or whatever the rounds were.

 

[Fishbed77]

When I think of a standard service caliber, three typically come to mind, as I think they do to most people: 9x19, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

I think you answered your own question. Those calibers are "standard." Millions of firearms are out there with billions of rounds to feed them. Manufacture, training, and supply infrastructures exist for them.

The importance of this is reflected by the fact that two of those cartridges are over 100 years old, and one of them is over 20. Between the three, it's hard to envision any other chambering that will offer much that these don't already offer for service use, especially when considering the balance of firepower, capacity, weight, cartridge size (critical when considering use in a pistol - longer cartidges won't fit well in grips that can be comfortably held by folks with a wide range of hand sizes), and especially cost.

 

[Skribs]

especially when considering the balance of firepower, capacity, weight, cartridge size (critical when considering use in a pistol - longer cartidges won't fit well in grips that can be comfortably held by folks with a wide range of hand sizes), and especially cost.

I left cost out of the thought process because right now these options are obviously expensive if they exist, but would be less so if they were more mainstream. I wasn't considering something that would be longer than anything else. Basically I was thinking of a .30 or 7.5mm cartridge the same length as a 9x19 or .40, and the .50 GI - which fits in a conversion kit for .45 ACP or 10mm pistols.

What I was primarily thinking was the balance of power vs. capacity. .50 GI comes in the Glock conversion kit in a 8- or 9-round magazine, essentially taking place on the low end of capacity with Glock. I'd assume a .30 caliber round with a straight-walled case could fit 20-22 rounds in the same space as a 9x19 can fit 17. Just farther reaches on the spectrum.

 

[GLOOB]

Personally, I think it's feasible that one day there'll be a new straight wall pistol cartridge slightly smaller than 9mm, and possibly even the same length.

With advances in bullet technology and smokeless propellants, it could offer slightly more capacity and similar ballistic performance at 115-124ish bullet weights.

But realistically... hey, we're still using the Imperial measurement system. As entrenched as it is, I don't think it's realistic for 9mm to be challenged by a smaller caliber unless there are some major improvements in propellant.

On the larger end of the scale, I don't see the benefit.

 

[Skribs]

I don't think the 9mm will be challenged, but I do think some people would make the switch if there was an option by a reputable company.

 

[FMF Doc]

There are a lot of other rounds out there, but you are right that they vary more in length than caliber. The reason, I believe, is that it is easier to take a long case and shorten it, or lengthen it that to create a whole new size. In 9mm for example, you have 9x17 (aka. .380) 9x18 (aka. makarov) 9x19 9x21 (9mm IMI) 9x23 (aka 38 super). If you buy 9x23, you can cut them to whatever you want. But if you wanted to make and 8mm, that would be a totally new case, and far to expensive to retool a machines. That is why they neck down rifle cases. Rather than change the case width (caliber) they just alter it. That way an action can be used for many rounds while only have to totally alter the barrel, and some head spacing issues occationally. At the end of the day, it is just not logistically reasonable to go too far outside the boxes already established.

 

[Jim Watson]

It's been done, guys.
There have been two different rounds but along similar lines developed in Europe.
Kind of .32 Supers, with emphasis on penetration since the Old World doesn't go in for - or some places not allow - expanding pistol bullets.
One is Glock compatible, the other was in cahoots with STI in the USA.
This has been a few years, they have probably sunk without a trace.

 

[B!ngo]

To me, the gun industry is a very slow-moving, evolutionary rather than revolutionary group of companies and individuals. I don't know if it's the need to ensure that anything in general use works virtually perfectly and thus the time cycles are slow, or there is an air of history and legacy that keeps things moving at a more casual pace. Could be both, could be something else entirely.
One of the things that seems to pose a challenge to your interesting larger/smaller post is in seeking improvements in handling recoil and accuracy as the power of a round grows. In that regard, I'm pretty interested in the Kriss-V which is a carbine and 'handgun' that transfers recoil to a vertical rather than horizontal vector. With this technology embodied in more of a traditional handgun, it would seem like .50, power 10mm or greater cartridges could potentially succeed. It will be interesting to see if this evolved to some widely used enabling technology or gets rejected by the small-arms world for good or bad reason.
B

 

[Skribs]

Bingo, I think the reason the 10mm isn't so popular is that for average civilian applications, it doesn't offer anything over similar loads in .40, but comes with a larger grip (disadvantage). The .50 GI, from what I've read, isn't that much different from .45 ACP in terms of recoil.

I don't think the Kriss-V will apply much to conceal carry pistols. Part of their vector technology involves a mass moving down the pistol grip, which can't really be applied to service pistols because the grip holds the magazine.

To me, the gun industry is a very slow-moving, evolutionary rather than revolutionary group of companies and individuals. I don't know if it's the need to ensure that anything in general use works virtually perfectly and thus the time cycles are slow, or there is an air of history and legacy that keeps things moving at a more casual pace. Could be both, could be something else entirely.

This is a good point, and I think its both. Some people will always choose Glock over XD/M&P because "Glock has a longer track record of working", even though all are known as quality pistols. I even wasn't saying to replace the 9 and .45 with a smaller and larger option, but rather to add options to the list, because 9 and .45 work.

Jim, what two calibers specifically are you thinking of? I'd like to look them up.

FMFDoc, that's a good point.

 

[Jim Watson]

Here is one of the smallbores

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VBR-Belgium_7.92×24mm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TizFses4YVA

The other is the 7mm Penna or 7x23
Searches on it find even less than the VBR

 

[9mmepiphany]

I think the reason the 10mm isn't so popular is that for average civilian applications, it doesn't offer anything over similar loads in .40, but comes with a larger grip (disadvantage).

The 10mm actually offers a lot more than the .40. You have to remember that the .40 is a cut down 10mm, much like the relationship of the .38 spl and the .357 Magnum...they were just developed in reverse of each other. The 10mm was developed as the ultimate fighting cartridge for a controllable handgun to launch a 200gr bullet at 1000fps from what it's champions considered the ultimate fighting handgun...while at the same time offering a larger magazine capacity that the .45 ACP.

It was the downloading of this cartridge which gave birth to the more limited (performancewise) .40 S&W. The 10mm in it's higher power loadings is the pistol equivalent of a .41 Magnum and makes an effective hunting round...which can't be said for the .40. Even the downloaded 10mm has proven superior to the .40 in penetrating automotive windshields. Plus the 10mm, in comparable loadings, has a more gradual pressure spike. (milder recoil)

 

[Skribs]

9mm, I'm not saying the 10mm can do less than the .40. What I am saying is that if you are using the common defense loads in 10mm, it's not doing anything different except fitting into a larger grip. I do agree that if you want the extra power, the 10 can do things the 40 can't, but your average joe who carries around town doesn't need that and usually doesn't get loads for that.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I might have read your post wrong

But, it did remind me of a bunch of folks who are paying $2k+ to have their SIG 220ST/Elite pistols converted to shoot the 10mm...loaded to about 1000fps. Likely the same folks who supported the development of the Centimeter cartridge by Pistol Dynamics

 

[Leadinmyboot]

.357 Sig anyone? My local law enforcement agency switched to it about 7 years ago when a 450+ pound man robbed a local 7-11 and 5 9mm's got lodged in his fat and didn't hit anything vital. Perhaps not the best shooting by the LEO, but the department switched nonetheless. I also live in NH, home of Sig Sauer USA, so perhaps they were looking for a reason to switch to something local and proprietary.

 

[Skribs]

I might have read your post wrong

Well it's a good thing I trust you on your knowledge of 9mm polymer frames over reading comprehension . (That was also a veiled compliment of your knowledge of 9mm). I'm just messin' with you, I understand how what I wrote before could be misconstrued, which is why I clarified.

Lead, the .357 sig doesn't really fit what I'm talking about, as it doesn't fix the balance of capacity vs. bore. While it definitely has some nice properties, it doesn't make a wider hole than a 9mm and has the capacity of the .40. I'm talking in here about something that will make a .30 hole (well, .30+expansion) or a .50 hole, and go up or down on the capacity scale (up for the .30, down for the .50).

 

[B!ngo]

9mm, I'm not saying the 10mm can do less than the .40. What I am saying is that if you are using the common defense loads in 10mm, it's not doing anything different except fitting into a larger grip. I do agree that if you want the extra power, the 10 can do things the 40 can't, but your average joe who carries around town doesn't need that and usually doesn't get loads for that.

I was implicitly referring to the original 10mm loads, not the deprecated loads that are sold today. In original form (or more) they are quite powerful and thus differentiated from the .40's which by definition are deprecated 10's.
But again, for the same reason that the FBI abandoned them, a full-charged 10 won't be widely accepted without some underlying platform optimization. If the Kriss-Vector technology is inappropriate, what about applying the dual buffer like in an H&K compact? Those guns shoot ever-so-softly that they are a real pleasure. I'd like to see an H&K 10mm with a full load. I'll bet it would be a hoot. And yes, I am an H&K homey.
B

 

[Fishslayer]

There's quite a bit of interest in the 5.57 that sends a .22 out of a handgun at rifle type velocities. No interest to me at all, really, but the kids seem to like 'em.

 

[Red Tornado]

Why wouldn't a rimless .327 Magnum fit the bill. A 100gr at up to 1800 fps brings something to the table and should allow higher capacity. I don't know if the grip would have to be to large, though.
RT

 

[Skribs]

It actually kind of would...bit long, but shorter than 5.7. Not a whole lot thinner than 9mm, though.

 

[JERRY]

the 9mm has shown itself to be the best all around defensive cartridge. it has loads that some call +p which are actually standard original spec rounds as well as "standard" watered down rounds which are still descent.

the cartridge can be had in small guns and large guns to fit every hand size. the recoil is not at all harsh for even the most novice shooter. for defense against human attackers it is almost perfect with the proper loadings and can be matched to most any shooter.

i didnt even mention the gigantic choice of firearms available nor the low cost of ammo.

i prefer a 10mm with original spec loads but have no problem with .45acp. my duty gun is a 9mm and i feel confident with it but i practice, because shot placement is king, penetration is queen and expansion is the court jester.

 

[JERRY]

9mm, the orginal 10mm specs called for a 170gr. @ 1,400 fps and a 200gr@ 1,200 fps.

this prooved to be too much to handle for many of the non police folks who work for the fbi so the watered down version came around, then the .40cal.

200gr. @ 1,000 fps in 10mm is low to mid powered at best.

 

[RSVP2RIP]

I bet people were having a similar conversation before the "self-contained metalic cartridge" caught on.

"Joe, I wonder if that rocket ball thing will ever take the place of the 1862 Pocket Police?"

I say yes, there will be a time that the 9mm will be considered junk. I believe that we could right now get the same performance out of a cartridge downsized to say .32" with the same case length as the 9mm in about a 110ish grain weight. But what would it do other than add one or two extra in the magazine? An extended floorplate costs $5.

 

[Skribs]

I say yes, there will be a time that the 9mm will be considered junk. I believe that we could right now get the same performance out of a cartridge downsized to say .32" with the same case length as the 9mm in about a 110ish grain weight. But what would it do other than add one or two extra in the magazine? An extended floorplate costs $5.

Extended floorplates also increase the size of the gun. Increased capacity without increased size can only be accomplished by decreasing the size of the bullet. By this very question, why do we carry anything but .45?

Again, I'm not saying that the 9mm is junk or trying to fix a problem. I'm trying to suggest it is possible to expand on the strength of the 9mm (capacity, low recoil) by going further in that direction. I also think that if you dropped a bit below .32 and went for a .30 or 7.5mm, you could add more than 1 or 2 to a duty-sized pistol.

 

[Robert101]

I'm only being funny by saying, I want my own personal sized "rail" gun. Increasing velocity to rifle speed might be the only way to further downsize the actual bullet diameter. I believe that was the intent when the 5.56 pistol round was developed.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'm wondering what there is, and if there's a future for, expanding in the other directions, with a .30 and a .50, to further the range of capacity vs. bore.

Both are available, for example the 7.63 or the .50 GI. Neither one has managed to generate a lot of popularity.