Does Conventional Marksmanship Win Gunfights?

[James T Thomas]

on target

There is a good magazine (don't remember which gunzine) -article by a man; Dave Spaulding who had taken many after action interviews with officers
and the conclusion was that, YES , conventional marksmanship wins gunfights.

It's -the article; on reason I like large bright color front sights.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I don't know if we're taking economics into account enough here. It's easy to say "there should be more training" "One box of ammo every 6 months isn't enough". You're right. There should be more training. But at least in Michigan, there needs to be officers to train first. Nearly every police department within 100 mile radius from where I live is in the process of laying off officers. The Michigan State Police has cut their number almost in half in the past few years. The money to employ police just isn't there. The economy has been so trampled by things I won't mention due to their political nature, that cities are not just using the same old "we'll have to cut essential services" argument, they're doing it. Tell me where the money for all this training is coming from when a city like Ann Arbor sometimes has as few as 4 officers on the road for the whole city at any given time due to layoffs and budget cuts.

 

[NMGonzo]

I think that making pretty little tight groupings adds to diddly squat in a real life scenario.

 

[Old Fuff]

I think that making pretty little tight groupings adds to diddly squat in a real life scenario.

Maybe, but if you miss a vital organ and the goblin isn't disabled (or just plain miss).... Well that could make a difference. No matter how you do it, good bullet placement does matter.

 

[mustang_steve]

Stress testing may help improve things....get a sleep deprived officer with "coffee shakes", stress him out badly, then throw him on the range...see how he/she performs then.

I done this a month or two ago and it was a real eye-opener...what was "can top" patterns at 40feet turned into pizza-box sized patterns. This showed me that I need to learn how to deal with adrenaline and fatigue....especially together.

Thing is, we need to master our bodies to be effective fighters...it's hard to do that when you only do dry-run practices. Of course live practices aren't reasonable for obvious reasons, but we should add some of the internal variables of an encounter to our regimen just to understand how we will react.

 

[Koz]

As someone who boxes I can attest to the disparity between peoples' ability in hitting the mitts and bag versus their ability in sparring.

There are many guys in my gym that look Tyson esque on the heavy bag, lacing powerful and fast combos together. However once they are put into the ring with someone who can hit them back, they curl up in fear and are unable to use their skills and get the **** kicked out of them.

I am not an experienced shooter, just someone who is interested in both sport and reality combat. But I can definitely see this comparison being applicable to gunfighting.

 

[JoeSlomo]

As someone who boxes I can attest to the disparity between peoples' ability in hitting the mitts and bag versus their ability in sparring.

There are many guys in my gym that look Tyson esque on the heavy bag, lacing powerful and fast combos together. However once they are put into the ring with someone who can hit them back, they curl up in fear and are unable to use their skills and get the **** kicked out of them.

I am not an experienced shooter, just someone who is interested in both sport and reality combat. But I can definitely see this comparison being applicable to gunfighting.

Yup...

The average individual needs technique training, and training that requires him to use his techniques under stress. The latter is usually missing, insufficient, or not done consistently enough to maintain a good training effect and proficiency.

As in boxing, fundamentals and technique must be initially learned and practiced without excess stress. When a proficiency in technique and fundamentals are displayed, than it is time to spar to induce stress, and to mentally and physically condition the fighter to apply his techniques. At first, a fighter may end up throwing technique out and succumbing to stress, but with proper training, he becomes conditioned, focused, and confident in the ring, and his technique improves. Eventually the fighter becomes conditioned and confident enough that he is capable of stepping into the ring and perform his techniques with deliberation and clarity despite stress.

This is where most agencies and programs fail to deliver imo. Blaming technique for poor performance in the ring makes NO sense when an individual has done NO sparring prior to a fight. A fighter that fails to condition himself under stress in sparring, will more than likely employ dismal technique in the fight, due to a lack of ability to manage stress.

For optimum proficiency, you must work technique, and you must do some sparring on a consistent basis to maintain proficiency and the ability to manage stress. When technique applied properly under stress proves less effective, or efficient, than it needs to be modified. However, making modifications to technique that has not been applied properly serves no purpose, and fails to "fix" the perceived issue.

 

[OldCavSoldier]

I cannot remember where I first hear it, but the best quote regarding the primary importance of mindset I have ever heard is: "Any gun will do, if you will do."

 

[Koz]

I would be interested in seeing the results of taking someone who is very skilled and accomplished in IPSC or IPDA and putting them through some of the force on force and reality drills described in this thread. I would imagine after a few training sessions they would do very well and would be able to use their conventional marksmanship skills in a FOF scenario.