Does my surplus Model 10 have delayed carry-up?

[IMtheNRA]

I picked up one of the surplus Model 10 (-11) revolvers for a great price, but I think mine has a problem.

When I slowly single-action cock the hammer, the stop does not fully engage the cylinder notch on almost every attempt. If I give the cylinder just a tiny bit more rotation with my fingers, the stop snaps into the notch. The additional rotation that is needed is almost imperceptable.

If I cock the hammer with my normal speed, as if I were shooting in SA mode, the cylinder locks up every time, probably because of the additional momentum of rotation from the faster cocking action.

The revolver came with a very stiff action, and I installed the Miculek spring set before I discovered this problem. Could the lighter mainspring and rebound spring of the Miculek set have caused delayed carry-up? (If I'm using the correct term here)

What causes this issue, how do I fix it, and can I safely shoot the revolver as it is?

 

[rcmodel]

Not a problem, unless you set around stressing over it, and cocking it very VERY slowly.

If it locks when used at a normal speed in both SA & DA, I would not loose any sleep over it.

If the bolt didn't drop into place early, you would outrun it in normal operation.

However, the fix is a longer hand.

It might be possible to peen the end on the one you have, or fit a new one.

Neither option is something I would recommend for the amateur revolversmith.

rc

 

[IMtheNRA]

Well, the reason that I picked up this revolver is that I got Kuhnhausen's Shop Manual a few months ago, if you know what I mean

I'm ready for an adventure, but there is no chapter on peening the hand, so how would a guy go about conducting this experiment?

 

[Jim K]

You can buy wider (not longer) hands from Brownells, but I consider what you describe as a non problem. If the gun works OK in normal use, I wouldn't worry.

The reason I say "wider" rather than longer is that the S&W hand (unlike the old Colt) does not push on the ratchet as it nears the locking point, it pushes up past the ratchet. (If you examine the hand and ratchet carefully, you can see that.)

Some folks have carried those "tests" to the point of silliness. Next, I expect to see someone put a pipe wrench on the cylinder to hold it back and "prove" it needs all new parts and several hundred bucks worth of gunsmithing.

Jim

 

[Lost Sheep]

My first revolver (Dan Wesson, 1975) did EXACTLY the same thing. I took it back to the dealer I bought it from, he sent it back to the factory (Arizona to Massachusetts) and I had it back in my hands operating optimally in about a week.

Yes, it's wrong. Yes, it seems to be an easy fix. Yes, it requires a goodly amount of gunsmithing skill to make that easy fix.

Good Luck.

Lost Sheep

 

[IMtheNRA]

Well, I'm a little short of gunsmithing skill, but I do have this revolver, THR, and a hammer. Three out of four isn't bad, eh?

 

[Remllez]

I throw in with RC,

Most often the momentum from normal speed shooting will carry it to lockup. Unless you plan on shooting your gun in super slow motion there's no need to stress about it. I doubt the spring set had much to do with it but you can always change it out and check.

If it bothers you a gunsmith can check it and advise, but if it isn't spitting on you it's pretty low on the priority list. I'd try shooting a few boxes through it and enjoy your gun before spending more money on it.

 

[IMtheNRA]

Thanks to all who replied. I am not going to obsess with it, and plan to test shoot the gun tonight. Just wanted to make sure it is not a safety issue. Besides, with loaded rounds in the chambers, and my normal shooting speed, this condition will probably not even exist due to greater momentum.

 

[DPris]

I've been agreeing with RC lately, but I have to diverge here.

Peening (or a longer hand) is a Colt fix, not a Smith fix, for timing.
Wider is the way to go with a Smith.

And I do consider it a repair, not an ignore.
It's out of time, pure & simple, and while it will function at normal speed, it's out of specs as far as the factory regards it.

One of the primary serviceability checks taught at the LE armorer's school I went through years ago on S&W revolvers was that check for carry-up, and if it failed, it was repaired.

It's an indicator of wear or improper fit-up, and that wear will progress.
Simply put- it just ain't "right".
My Smiths all carry-up correctly, and if I acquire one that doesn't, it'll be fixed.
Your choice.
Denis

 

[Fishslayer]

And I do consider it a repair, not an ignore.
It's out of time, pure & simple, and while it will function at normal speed, it's out of specs as far as the factory regards it.

I agree with this. Failure to carry up is an indicator of a more serious problem down the road.

 

[1911Tuner]

Mucho ado over nada mucho.

As long as it carries up at normal speed, it's fine. The cylinder's momentum will carry it.

If you do a lot of really fast DA shooting with the gun, it may even be a good thing because the trailing wall of the stop notch doesn't slam into the bolt quite as hard.

 

[DPris]

Yes, momentum will enable it to function, but it still isn't up to factory specs & I'd assume there's a reason for S&W to set them up correctly in the first place and to teach the carry-up check in evaluating for function.

To me, it's sorta like having a bad sparkplug in my truck. Truck would still run, momentum caused by the other seven cylinders would still "carry" it along, but it wouldn't be right & it's a needed repair.
It also wouldn't get any better with continued use.

I don't limp along with my guns running out of specs. Rugers, Smiths, or Colts, if the carry-up's off it gets corrected. (Although I've never seen a Ruger with a timing issue.)
Just me.
Denis

 

[Malamute]

I'm very much with DPris on this. It doesn't take a pipe wrench to cause troubles, just let the gun get a little dirty, or a flake or two of unburned powder under the extractor star, and it can cause some drag, and can prevent the chamber thoats from lining up with the barrel properly. You will get lead spitting at that point. How much lead spitting is acceptable? Looking at used guns, you can often see lead deposits on one side of the forcing cone. Checking timing, they are generally out of time, even if just on one or two chambers.

I'm really surprised so many are willing to accept an out of time gun as "OK".

 

[IMtheNRA]

Took the revolver to the range last night and it shoots great!!! Perfect match of POI and POA at 16 yards with some of my home-made light 158-gr test loads.

I would like to fix the timing, if only for experience. Last night, I measured the hand at 0.0955 and the window at 0.0980

I ordered the oversize cylinder hand today from S&W, but the rep there said something unexpected. He told me that the oversize hand is the same width as the standard hand, and only it's height is oversized. He even checked with a co-worker.

Is this right? After reading Kuhnhausen's Shop Manual, I thought the oversize hand is supposed to be wider.

 

[1911Tuner]

Yes, momentum will enable it to function, but it still isn't up to factory specs & I'd assume there's a reason for S&W to set them up correctly in the first place and to teach the carry-up check in evaluating for function.

"To factory spec" is a little vague. I've had several Smith & Wesson revolvers over the years that I could get to fail to carry up if I cycled'em empty and reeeeeeeeeeaaaalll sloooow, but at a normal speed...or even a below normal but not in slow motion...they timed up just fine, and even reeeeaaaallll sloooowwww...if I loaded the chambers with empty cases, they carried up and locked into battery just before or just as the hammers released

With the new design Smiths, the carry-up/timing test has to be performed with charged chambers. Empty chambers will give a false result. There are tests and there are tests. Performing a test in such a way as to give them every chance to fail will produce a few failures in guns that are functioning well.

 

[DPris]

Fortunately, my Smiths (all older) pass the test.
The way I learned is pretty simple- if I can cycle the gun slowly & the hammer locks before the cylinder does, it's out of specs.

Also, on the length vs width re the hand, it's wider, not longer, in my experience.

Denis

 

[jhco50]

RCModel is correct. It is actually a timing problem and if you are careful you can peen the bottom finger on the hand just a tiny bit and correct it. Don't over do it.

 

[DPris]

Never heard of peening a Smith hand anywhere on it.
Denis

 

[murf]

just make sure to keep the area under the ejector star clean. a little grit under there can cause the cylinder to drag. this can be a problem, in your case.

murf

 

[Old Fuff]

Setting aside the "should it be fixed" issue, there is no question that it can be. Brownells (www.brownells.com) offer the Power Custom oversized K size hand (stock #713-028-002WB) for $25.00.

This is an oversized blank that can be gunsmith-fitted to correct any hand related problems. I have used them to cure a number of carry-up problems and they haven't failed me yet.