Does the 1911 need full length frame rails?

[BSA1]

This is sortof a followup question on my recent question about Sand Rails.

In the back of my somewhat fuzzy mind I remember there were issues reported about a crack developing from the slide stop pin hole to the top of the frame. I think this was in the earlier days of IPSC shooting. As I seem to recall the blame was placed on too much stress (hot loads?) which was transmitted to the slide stop hole/frame as it was the weakest area of the frame. The fix was to simply cut the section of frame rail out which left a gap in the length of the rail.

For those with unfuzzier minds than mine recall what ever became of this issue? I don't ever recall reading or hearing about problems with the guns about this mod was done. Was the frame slightly redesigned by the manufacturers to strengthen or eliminate the stress? Or is this still a accepted mod in IPSC shooting?

 

[BBBBill]

Colt started doing it at the factory on 10mm guns and does it on all 1911s now. Doesn't hurt a thing.

 

[Drail]

On most 1911s the rails only bear on each other at a couple of points and the slide rattles along the full length when it cycles. The cutout solved the crack problem and does no harm.

 

[BBBBill]

http://www.1911pro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1491
Note in the first pic that the STI/SVI variants eliminate the rails completely over the mag well.

 

[BSA1]

So could a corresponding section of rail on the opposite side be removed with compromising the strength of the gun such as the Springfield Armory? Would the forged frame vs. cast frame make a difference?

 

[rcmodel]

From the sand cut thread:

If you want to build a match tight gun and dump it in sand?
Why not just cut both frame rails off all the way between the front & back of the mag well and be done with it??

rc

 

[BSA1]

From the sand cut thread:

Quote:
If you want to build a match tight gun and dump it in sand?
Why not just cut both frame rails off all the way between the front & back of the mag well and be done with it??

My question has to do with the strength of the frame after the cuts would be done. Since you are a former armorer in the Army do you have first hand experience with this modification you can share with me?

 

[BBBBill]

He wasn't trashing your post. Opinions vary based on personal experiences. His differ from your, mine, and others. From your questions, it is obvious that you have little experience with the 1911. That perception will certainly frame the responses you get. No one is trying to be hard on you or wants to see you fail in your endeavors.

 

[BSA1]

Well I am not a gunsmith if that is what you mean by not have experience with the 1911. While I have a fair selection of tools and perform many minor repairs/modifcations myself when it comes to something that may cause the gun to become unrelible or worse I seek informed opinions. I use forums such as this as it is a vast resource of years of experience.

When seeking advise I listen to pros like Chuck Roger and Cylinder and Slide and the experience of fellow shooters. I also seek the opinion of other shooters to find out what their experience has been in the actual field use.

The suggestion has already been made on my previous post about Sand Rails to remove a section of the rail on both sides of the frame. NOW my question is how do removing a section of frame rail on both sides affect the strength of gun? As I already stated I am aware it was/is being done on the left side above the slide stop pin. I was not aware of it being done on the corresponding side.

BBBBill your comment about Colt doing it on the 10mm makes me think this is a practical modification. Sand Cuts seem to be too new for feedback from users.

I can how when scanning thread it is posssible not to carefully read each post as I am guilty of that myself. I edited my response so RC Modeler and yourself will no longer be offended. Maybe I will wind up getting both mods done. Of course then I will need a couple of volunteers to help with the testing. <]:-0

 

[cuba]

in my view there is no negative affects to the pistols strength by removing a section of the rails because its primary purpose is to guide the slide back and act like a gun mount the actual gun is the slide assembly, there is no shear applied to the rails upon combustion, the only thing that connects the slide and frame during recoil momentum is the action spring.

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun.

 

[rcmodel]

Since you are a former armorer in the Army do you have first hand experience with this modification you can share with me?

No.

Never done it.

I have welded the crack on the left rail at the slide stop cut and re-milled the rail.

More recently I have just cut the crack out.

Nobody in the military when I was in it would have considered sand cuts, or frame rail chopping, because there is nothing to be gained from it that I could tell.

IMO: You would lose bearing surface on the rails on a fitted Match gun, and that would not be desirable as it would accelerate wear on the sections that were left.

GI 1911's ran dirty, with no modifications.
National Match guns ran dirty long enough to complete a 2700 Bullseye match with no malfunctions period.

That was all we ask of them to do.

rc

 

[cuba]

When you say sand rail I picture this, PistolWrench sand box model and if this is what you are refering to, I don't think that it will weaken the pistol any.




shoot safe, shoot straight, and havr fun.

 

[BSA1]

The picture is a example of Chuck Rogers work.

 

[rcmodel]

If fine sand gets in between the slide & frame gap.

The vertical cuts in the slide rails would appear to me to let just as much sand In, as Out!!

rc

 

[Arp32]

I'm sure I am just ignorant on the subject, but that picture seems like a solution in search of a problem! Poor gun. I try not to store mine in sand...

 

[rcmodel]

that picture seems like a solution in search of a problem!

+1
That's what I have been trying to say for over a week in two threads now.

I carried a GI issue 1911A1 for eight years.
And there was no time it failed to work because it got too dirty.

If it had of, it was entirely my fault for letting it get that dirty in the first place.

rc

 

[BSA1]

The concept of having a handgun that can fire 1,000 rounds or more without cleaning in a dusty or dirty environment seems to be getting lost here.

I do not subscribe to the notion that a firearm must be cleaned after every session it is fired. I know shooters that are so anal about cleaning their weapon after shooting they completely detail strip it after each session.

With the modern finishes available today such as NP3 and Black T I do not believe that 1,000 rounds are unreasonable. If you do not push your gun to the limit how do you know how many rounds it will fire before it quits functioning?

Of course there are other commonly accepted solutions to none existent problems. What is purpose of super rugged sights like Novaks and 10-8 when no one plans on dropping their gun or shooting a lot of rounds though it? The sights on the 1911A1 has served just fine.

What about checking the frontstrap? Generations of G.I.s have used the 1911 in combat without needing it. It fact I suspect most of us with soft hands from typing at keyboards find checkering uncomfortable.

But the gun rags tote these mods so they must be needed right?

On the other hand if you get enjoyment stripping and scrubbing your gun with solvent and toothbrush who am I to try to stop you from having fun???

 

[rcmodel]

If it's getting lost, it seems to be getting lost on yur end.

During the 1904 Acceptance tests:

The US Army subject all submitted handguns to the following torture tests:

•Each gun was to fire 6,000 rounds.
•Each gun would shoot 100 rounds at a time and then allowed to cool for 5 minutes before shooting again.
•Every 1,000 rounds fired, the gun was to be oiled and cleaned before firing again.
•After firing 6,000 rounds was completed, the gun was to be tested with deformed cartridges (i.e.) some that seated too deeply, some that were not seated enough etc.
•The gun would be exposed to acid to test rust resistance, buried in sand and mud to test reliability etc.

Designs were submitted by Colt, Luger, Knoble, Bergmann, White-Merrill, Smith & Wesson and Savage. The Colt entry was designed by the renowned designer John Browning. The Browning design easily passed all the tests and became known as the M1911 pistol (as it was accepted officially in 1911). In the words of the selection committee:

"...the board was of the opinion that the Colt is superior, because it is more reliable, more enduring, more easily disassembled when there are broken parts to be replaced, and more accurate."

rc

 

[BSA1]

It's time to close this thread. You have not directly answered my question about how removing a section of trame rail will affect the strength and life span of the gun. Moderator please close this bad boy as I deeply regret bringing the subject up.

 

[Jim K]

The 1911 does not have full length rails now. The Petter designs have full length rails.

As to "sand cuts", I also see a solution in search of a problem. The inventor took one poster to task in a rather insulting manner, saying that he, the inventor, had been doing that kind of work for a living and should not be questioned. I am not sure that the money-making aspects of a design are as important to anyone else as whether the modification works and is needed.

Jim

 

[Legion489]

Well said BSA1, if the gun rags push it, it MUST be needed, even if the gun has run fine for 100 years with out all the "needed" (so called) "improvements" that only put money in someone else's pocket.

 

[1911Tuner]

Cut the crack out. It won't weaken anything. The slide and barrel assembly is the gun, and that's what takes all the pounding. The frame is basically just the gun mount and a housing for the controls.

 

[cuba]

In my view with the tight tolorences that the modern 1911 are being built with, the sand rails are an excelant treatment for added reliability specialy in the desert and such.

Chuck Roger design intent:
I knew when I was designing this gun that it sure was not going to please everyone.
It was specifically built for those working in desert environs.

LEO’s working the southwestern border and those working overseas have indicated a preference for a tan color on weapons and gear. ‘Tactical Black’ is commonly referred to as ‘Target Designator Black’, not something they want for clothing or equipment.

The coating on the gun is ‘Ceracoat’ Coyote Tan applied over a base of manganese phosphate (parkerizing). Ceracoat incorporates both ceramic and self-lubricating elements in the matrix, producing very good wear characteristics and reduced need for sand attracting oils or greases.


The ‘sand cuts’ are often misunderstood. Their purpose is not to act as evacuation channels but as sand traps or reservoirs. As the slide moves, sand/dirt that would have been trapped between the frame, slide and ejector is sheared off into the grooves. It remains there until the weapon is cleaned, but is no longer fouling the action of the slide. No part of any of the grooves is exposed to the outside environment when the gun is in battery. There is no possibility of them contributing to sand/dirt entering the weapon.

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun

 

[Arp32]

Makes more sense in that context. Not for me, but I'm not the target market.

 

[1911Tuner]

There's sand like the stuff at the beach and in your kids' backyard sandbox, and there's sand like the stuff in the Mid-Eastern deserts...about the consistency of talcum powder.

I'd be more concerned with debris entering the gun around a lowered ejection port, which provides a fairly sizable opening. With a 1911, Condition One in an open holster provides a window of opportunity between the hammer and frame for bad stuff to enter the lockwork. Even a thumb break holster doesn't help much.