Does the 1911 need full length frame rails?

[cuba]

While not addressing and alleviating all the debris intrusions through all the open ports, I believe that the slots along the moving surfaces of the rails adds an element of reliability for a tightly built 1911 ringing out the most accuracy, under adverse condition with out compromising the structural integrity of the pistol, and I feel that it would be an asset if incorporated into the new MARSOC Colt rail guns, with out deviating much from the original design.

Shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun

 

[jmorris]

Your answer was in post #4. SVI and STI pistols do not have full length rails (or frames, the grip is plastic) and win more competitions, where legal, than anyother design.
So no, they don't have to be full length.

If your really that worried about dust put a shower cap over your pistol. Or one of the socks that USPSA open shooters use.

FWIW I would not go the route that was hacked into the pistol in post #12, looks like a way to trap dirt in than keep it out.

 

[RogersPrecision]

First time this week I have been called a hack!

There is still a day and a half to go.

 

[1911Tuner]

First time this week I have been called a hack!

Interesting, no?

The "Sand Box" frame mod is a good idea. Very practical. It would be a good thing for all auto pistol frames, were it not for the added cost of machining...and that could be handled easily with investment casting.

The people who look at it and scream about weakening the frame don't understand the frame's role in the scheme of things. The cries of "The frame! The frame!" are everywhere, but they ignore the slide. The slide catches all the hell. The frame...not so much.

 

[jmorris]

First time this week I have been called a hack!

I didn't call you a hack, just the slots in the frame rails, sorry. Now that I can ask the question to the originator of the work, what is better about the "slots machined" into the rails than just to make them intermittent like the S*I pistols? Seems like your method would better trap grit than get rid of it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Seems like your method would better trap grit than get rid of it.

What it does is give the debris somewhere to go and get out of the way before it has a chance to get worked into the tight clearances of the rails, imbed, and stop the gun via galling or straight friction.

Being very much a "Function Before Form" kinda guy, I see modifications that really serve no purpose other than decoration. Others...like the upswept grip safety...perform a function, but lose another one on the other end. There are very few free lunches.

This is a free lunch. It helps to insure that the pistol will function in a sandy, dusty environment and costs nothing. It doesn't weaken the frame and it doesn't lead to accelerated frame wear under normal conditions.

This is a good one.

 

[cuba]

Thats what was needed an authority in 1911's to put an end to these senseless speculations.

shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun

 

[jmorris]

Still seems like a belly button to me (a good place for stuff to collect) but you might want to get a patent on the idea as there are a number of pistols that use front and rear frame rails but I don't recall any that use serrated rails.

 

[1911Tuner]

Still seems like a belly button to me (a good place for stuff to collect)

That's exactly what it's for. Collecting debris before it gets ground into the rails, causing the gun to malfunction.

Going on the premise that men who carry it into nightmarish places are meticulous about keeping their weapons clean, the debris isn't normally there for long...while at the same time understanding that they can't clean the pistols every 15 minutes...and that they may need to shoot for blood without warning. The slots give any accumulated sand and dust a place to go until the fight is over.

 

[BSA1]

Thank you 1911 Tuner for sharing your thoughts. Alas I fear the concept of true combat handgun functioning in the worst of conditions is lost on this thread.

 

[BSA1]

Commies use of sand cuts

I had every of intention of not adding any more posts to this thread but I came across something interesting that is worth posting. While I was cleaning a Polish P64 9x18 semi-automatic pistol today I discovered a large number of vertical serrations on the inside of the slide. The serrations are on both sides of the inside of the slide on the lower portion that rides over the frame rails. The bluing of the top of the serrations are worn off from contact with the frame rails.

Two thoughts come to mind. Poor attention to derail or dull cutters caused chatter on the slide. However the P64 is a very well made pistol with no other tooling marks to suggest poor quality control. Also the serrations are uniform in depth and length on both sides of the slide.

The second thought is the dreaded Commie version of sand rail cuts. Imagine the Commies to realize that gunk and grit could cause a semi-automatic pistol to jam under adverse field conditions. The Commies would seem to have a lot of experience in this area with the legendary AK-47.

Update 8/29/12;

I did a reshoot under different lighting conditions this morning and got a lot clearer photograph;

http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh560/Seldomseen3/102425ba.jpg

 

[rbernie]

As an aside - the Sig P226 used a number of different sand cut designs in its aluminum frame rails over its early years, before finally settling on none.

That may mean nothing or it may mean something, but it certainly is a knowable data point.

 

[BSA1]

More so as I has always considered Communist handguns (and a lot of other countries) to be more a symbol of rank or importance not a true combat gun.

 

[rcmodel]

It was very difficult for me to photograph the serrations due to the quality of my camera.

Boy, you got that right!!

The only photo that doesn't look like a Salvador Dali painting is the last one.

And that looks like dull milling machine cutter chatter, near as I can tell?

I do not think it is a sand cut, or intentional.

rc

 

[1911Tuner]

Another effect of the sand cuts is that...in a pistol that's not subject to a sandy environment...they'll hold oil and distribute it every time the slide cycles at speed, potentially extending the life of the rails.

 

[BSA1]

1911Tuner,

Another thought would be also to reduce the amount of drag/friction between the sldie and frame. Given the severe winters Russia is famous for (after all it stopped the armies in two two major wars) I wonder if the Ruskies even oiled their small arms.

As we agree this another example of getting a free ride that gives up nothing.

rcmodeler,

Given your previous posts I did not expect you to change your position.

None the less you can not deny that the cuts are there, they are uniform is depth, height and length as evidenced by the shadows caused by the lignt.

Well actually I guess you deny anything that disagrees with your position.

I did a reshoot in different lighting this morning and got a lot clearer photograph of the machine cuts on the inside of the slide;

http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh560/Seldomseen3/102425ba.jpg