Gelatin results don't distinguish it from a 9mm. It holds less rounds and has more recoil. Does it do anything that would make it preferabld to either the 9mm or 40s+w? Barrier penetration, etc.? I want to like the round but I can't find any justification for it's existence.
Does the 357sig have any redeeming value?
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30 cal slob
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From my own experience, I've found it to be an extremely accurate round, even in a Glock. I like the crisp recoil.
I've heard second-hand accounts of initially favorable terminal ballistic performance in actual use. Directly from a well-known LEO firearms/safety instructor.
It is expensive.
It is a bear to reload because of the case neck. According to the folks at Dillon Precision, the .357 Sig caliber is the #1 source of reloading complaint calls.
I've heard second-hand accounts of initially favorable terminal ballistic performance in actual use. Directly from a well-known LEO firearms/safety instructor.
It is expensive.
It is a bear to reload because of the case neck. According to the folks at Dillon Precision, the .357 Sig caliber is the #1 source of reloading complaint calls.
Sean Smith
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The fact is, it has superior external ballistics to 9x19. If jello is your end-all and be-all, then there are .45 ACP and 10mm Auto loads that are substantially superior to anything in 9x19, but no 9x19 fan wants to admit that. But suddenly jello is definitive when it comes to knocking .357 Sig. 
On a more serious note, it is an OK cartridge, it has pros and cons like anything else. Personally, I think 9x23 is a superior all-around solution if you want a fast .355" handgun cartridge, but that's a whole other conversation.
For the curious, you can read a passionate defense of .357 Sig vs. 9x19 here:
http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/9mm.357.compare.htm
On a more serious note, it is an OK cartridge, it has pros and cons like anything else. Personally, I think 9x23 is a superior all-around solution if you want a fast .355" handgun cartridge, but that's a whole other conversation.
For the curious, you can read a passionate defense of .357 Sig vs. 9x19 here:
http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/9mm.357.compare.htm
Yes. Its very accurate (esp from a Sig), shoots very flat, and gives substantial penetration. If you shop around, ammo isn't that expensive.
If I were buying a new semi-auto, I would strongly consider a p226/p229/p239 in .357 Sig. I'd also consider some of the .357 Sig Glocks.
The folks at SigArms are not stupid, and they aren't prone to invent something that will fail.
-David
If I were buying a new semi-auto, I would strongly consider a p226/p229/p239 in .357 Sig. I'd also consider some of the .357 Sig Glocks.
The folks at SigArms are not stupid, and they aren't prone to invent something that will fail.
-David
SpookyPistolero
Member
Cool factor! Just kidding.
The .357 Sig is not some end all- be all cartridge. It is, however, an excellent defensive round and another good choice. Is it better than the 9x19? Yes. But above that, 'better' is about as subjective as it gets. In full-power combat loads at this level it is still about shot placement.
It's quite an accurate round. I have had very good experiences with mine. The recoil is not at all bad, and I shoot it in IDPA with a subcompact Glock. I suspect those who complain about it have trouble handling recoil in general. That is not intended to be a flame.
Thus far in field reports, all I care about, the performance and one-shot stops have been quite good. The penetration is excellent and it particularly excells in scenarios like penetrating auto glass. This is good for both police and citizens.
It is expensive, it is hard to get your reloads right. It is a great round if it's particular differences to something like a .45 appeal to you. They appeal to me. Choose what you will.
I have yet to be attacked by a gelatin mold, but you never know. It has to be mostly evil with such a tempting slogan as 'there's always room for jello'. Field reports of the 9x19 get iffy at best from time to time at the least. Time will tell with the .357.
Take care.
The .357 Sig is not some end all- be all cartridge. It is, however, an excellent defensive round and another good choice. Is it better than the 9x19? Yes. But above that, 'better' is about as subjective as it gets. In full-power combat loads at this level it is still about shot placement.
It's quite an accurate round. I have had very good experiences with mine. The recoil is not at all bad, and I shoot it in IDPA with a subcompact Glock. I suspect those who complain about it have trouble handling recoil in general. That is not intended to be a flame.
Thus far in field reports, all I care about, the performance and one-shot stops have been quite good. The penetration is excellent and it particularly excells in scenarios like penetrating auto glass. This is good for both police and citizens.
It is expensive, it is hard to get your reloads right. It is a great round if it's particular differences to something like a .45 appeal to you. They appeal to me. Choose what you will.
I have yet to be attacked by a gelatin mold, but you never know. It has to be mostly evil with such a tempting slogan as 'there's always room for jello'. Field reports of the 9x19 get iffy at best from time to time at the least. Time will tell with the .357.
Take care.
Zak Smith
Member
You're right that it's indistinguishable from 9mm +P in FBI protocol gel tests.
It may be better for penetration car doors than 9x19-- might be worth looking into.
Only reason I'd got to a 125gr @ over 1400fps is if I was shooting a 1911 and wanted the longer 9x23 or 38Super.
-z
It may be better for penetration car doors than 9x19-- might be worth looking into.
Only reason I'd got to a 125gr @ over 1400fps is if I was shooting a 1911 and wanted the longer 9x23 or 38Super.
-z
SpookyPistolero
Member
As a small aside, I've always felt the.357 sig would really shine out of a more suitable barrel length, and the glock 34/35 size would be perfect for this. I never understood why glock didnt offer at least a replacement barrel for the 35. I suppose regular .357 sales weren't impressive enough.
Ivy Mike
Member
Forgive a stupid question, but why don't we see more bullet weights for the .357Sig?
Seems like it would really wreak havoc on jello with lighter rounds or perhaps show itself to be a better penetrator with something heavier. In fact, an actual AP bullet would probably put it in a class by itself...until somebody did the same thing with 9x23.
Actually, I think it would be an excellent SMG round, but the necked case might cause feed problems in full auto.
Seems like it would really wreak havoc on jello with lighter rounds or perhaps show itself to be a better penetrator with something heavier. In fact, an actual AP bullet would probably put it in a class by itself...until somebody did the same thing with 9x23.
Actually, I think it would be an excellent SMG round, but the necked case might cause feed problems in full auto.
Sharps Shooter
Member
I read somewhere that the necked down 357 Sig feeds more reliably. However, I just got my new 1911 Kimber (38 Super) and of the 200 rounds I've put through it so far, it hasn't failed once. I don't know how much more reliable a 357 Sig could be than that.
30 cal slob
Member
I recently had a .357 sig Kimber built for me (also came with a .38 super drop-in barrel).
I put 500 (factory new) rounds through it to break it in.
No problems whatsoever.
I put 500 (factory new) rounds through it to break it in.
No problems whatsoever.
Sean Smith
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.38 Super feeds nice in the 1911 platform because it is almost a perfectly straight shot into the chamber, vs. a .45 which has to go in at more of an angle. Conversely, .357 Sig is a little tricker in a 1911 because its OAL is shorter than the .45 ACP that the gun was designed for (which is also about the same as .38 Super, 9x23 and 10mm).
Marko Kloos
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, the .357SIG has redeeming value. It offers higher velocity, more energy, better barrier penetration, and flatter trajectory than 9mm.
One point that's often overlooked is that in order to get close to .357SIG territory, you have to push a 9mm to +P and +P+ velocities. This puts more stress on a gun that's not necessarily designed for that kind of a beating. In contrast, the guns designed for .357SIG are not being pushed to the upper edge of their safe pressure envelope.
I think it's an excellent defensive caliber, and I greatly prefer it over its cousin, the .40S&W. It's more fun to shoot, has more agreeable recoil characteristics, and offers more favorable terminal ballistics.
One point that's often overlooked is that in order to get close to .357SIG territory, you have to push a 9mm to +P and +P+ velocities. This puts more stress on a gun that's not necessarily designed for that kind of a beating. In contrast, the guns designed for .357SIG are not being pushed to the upper edge of their safe pressure envelope.
I think it's an excellent defensive caliber, and I greatly prefer it over its cousin, the .40S&W. It's more fun to shoot, has more agreeable recoil characteristics, and offers more favorable terminal ballistics.
Zak Smith
Member
Higher velocity by itself does not necessarily help wounding mechanisms in handgun cartidges. Take a look at the FBI-protocol data for 357SIG (125 @ 1450) vs. 9x19 +P (124gr @ 1250) and they're basically identical.
With regard to trajectory (25y zero)
Code:
_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 20 40 60 80 100 | YARDS
124GD+P 0.134 1250 > -0.40 0.04 -0.51 -2.14 -4.96 -9.06 | drop (inches)
357SIG 0.134 1450 > -0.40 0.01 -0.33 -1.50 -3.61 -6.75 | drop (inches)
124GD+P 0.134 1250 > 1250 1186 1131 1084 1045 1011 | velocity (fps)
357SIG 0.134 1450 > 1450 1366 1289 1221 1161 1109 | velocity (fps)Outside of possibly barrier penetration (no data handy), 357SIG is not superior to 40SW:
http://demigod.org/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php?sort=grade1
30 cal slob
Member
mmmm ... I can't quite put my finger on it, but methinks the .357 Sig is a little more accurate than the .40 S&W. I'm just going by anecdotal feel on this ...
Zak Smith
Member
Got Data?
Marko Kloos
Moderator Emeritus
Sheesh. If you prefer the 9mm over the .357SIG, then don't freakin' buy a gun in .357SIG. Simple as that.
As for ballistics tables this, and FBI gelatin tests that...you simply cannot tell me that a 200fps speed advantage makes no performance difference in a target. If that were true, there'd be absolutely no need to pick a .357 Magnum over .38 Special, or 9mm over .380ACP. If that's true, then why use 9mm +P to begin with, and not standard-pressure 9mm Luger?
There's also the unaddressed point of gun design and longevity of guns built for 9mm pressures shooting +P and +P+, and guns built for .40S&W/.357SIG shooting a cartridge that falls within the design parameters of the gun.
As for ballistics tables this, and FBI gelatin tests that...you simply cannot tell me that a 200fps speed advantage makes no performance difference in a target. If that were true, there'd be absolutely no need to pick a .357 Magnum over .38 Special, or 9mm over .380ACP. If that's true, then why use 9mm +P to begin with, and not standard-pressure 9mm Luger?
There's also the unaddressed point of gun design and longevity of guns built for 9mm pressures shooting +P and +P+, and guns built for .40S&W/.357SIG shooting a cartridge that falls within the design parameters of the gun.
30 cal slob
Member
The .357 Sig is F-U-N to shoot. That's enough for me.
All I can say is ... give it a try. Why not?
All I can say is ... give it a try. Why not?
Zak Smith
Member
Not exactly. I'm promoting neither 9x19 nor the 40SW nor the 357SIG in this thread. Others including yourself are making positive claims about 357SIG's performance, and I want to keep you honest.
The question wasn't "What flavor of ice cream do you like best?"-- we could all have different likes or dislikes and that would be that, no debate either way. If we want to get any reliable information out of the discussion, it has to be based on facts.
So you're telling me that the mechanisms identified by experts for wounding effectiveness and incapacitation are invalid? And the best scientific methods they've developed are also an invalid indicator of terminal performance? You would have something to stand on with such a claim if you published a terminal ballistics tour de force in a peer reviewed journal with revolutionized the field. As it stands, what do you have?
To pick apart your argument in particular, you are mis-stating my objection. I stated that hopping up a 124-125gr .355" bullet from 1250fps to 1450fps gives you nothing observable in FBI gel results. In response, you say that means there would be no difference between 380Auto and 357Magnum-- not even close. If you look at that ballistic data I quoted before, it's interesting to note that the best of the 357 Magnum loads has worse results than even the 357SIG!
Can you cite a case where an identical model pistol will self destruct shooting Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P but won't shooting full power 357SIG? (eg, a Glock 26 vs 33, or SIG P239)
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coylh
Member
If you believe in jello penetration as your metric:
Bullet Grains FPS Pen Expand Jello Removal Score
9mm gold dot 124 1068fps 12.6 0.59 3.44
9mm gold dot 124 1155fps 13.2 0.62 3.98
.357sig golddot 125 1372fps 16.0 0.6 4.52
So, it would appear that you get the same benefit moving from 9mm+P to .357sig as you do moving from 9mm to 9mm+P.
* http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm
* http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357sig.htm
Personally, I like it because of the bottleneck design.
Bullet Grains FPS Pen Expand Jello Removal Score
9mm gold dot 124 1068fps 12.6 0.59 3.44
9mm gold dot 124 1155fps 13.2 0.62 3.98
.357sig golddot 125 1372fps 16.0 0.6 4.52
So, it would appear that you get the same benefit moving from 9mm+P to .357sig as you do moving from 9mm to 9mm+P.
* http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm
* http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357sig.htm
Personally, I like it because of the bottleneck design.
Zak Smith
Member
Which is desirable: penetration, expansion, or both?
Let's go back to what the experts say, http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
If we look at both penetration and expansion and combine them into a wound volume metric, provided that all meet the 12" minimum, the top .355" performers are:
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php?sort=grade1
Sort order is wound volume metric.
(Note that coylh missed some data points in his survey. I collected all the ones I could find on FTI into that web page several years ago.)
And by the way, if you think penetration depth is most important, the best performer of all in the data-set was this one (bare gelatin):
Back to average wound volume metric, the best 9x19 load is 10% better than the 357SIG datapoint, and a regular old 115gr Gold Dot is only 17% worse. Looking at that distribution, what does 357SIG give you?
Let's go back to what the experts say, http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
Turns out you want both: penetration to reach to vital organs (specifically the CNS and vascular system) and expansion to increase damage and probability of damage to said organs.
If we look at both penetration and expansion and combine them into a wound volume metric, provided that all meet the 12" minimum, the top .355" performers are:
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php?sort=grade1
Code:
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@1017, 21.4 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.70cu|CL 15.5", 0.65", 5.14cu|avg 4.92, 3.77 re, 1.31
9x19 CCI/Speer GD +P |124@1223, 21.7 mv, 411 E|BR 13.4", 0.68", 4.87cu|CL 20.2", 0.53", 4.47cu|avg 4.64, 3.88 re, 1.20
9x19 Win Black Talon |147@ 946, 19.9 mv, 292 E|BR 14.8", 0.60", 4.20cu|CL 16.4", 0.61", 4.78cu|avg 4.49, 3.26 re, 1.38
357SIG CCI/Speer GD |125@1372, 24.5 mv, 522 E|BR 16.1", 0.60", 4.54cu|CL 19.1", 0.54", 4.36cu|avg 4.45, 4.96 re, 0.90
357MAG Fed JHP |158@1200, 27.1 mv, 505 E|BR 16.5", 0.50", 3.24cu|CL 15.9", 0.64", 5.12cu|avg 4.18, 6.07 re, 0.69
357MAG Win Silvertip |145@1166, 24.2 mv, 437 E|BR 15.8", 0.58", 4.17cu|CL 12.9", 0.64", 4.15cu|avg 4.16, 4.82 re, 0.86
9x19 Win Ranger PG |124@1015, 18.0 mv, 283 E|BR 12.5", 0.65", 4.15cu|CL 14.0", 0.61", 4.09cu|avg 4.12, 2.67 re, 1.54
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@ 864, 18.1 mv, 243 E|BR 13.8", 0.61", 4.03cu|CL 15.2", 0.59", 4.17cu|avg 4.10, 2.72 re, 1.51
9x19 Rem |147@ 987, 20.7 mv, 318 E|BR 18.1", 0.51", 3.71cu|CL 15.9", 0.59", 4.36cu|avg 4.03, 3.55 re, 1.14
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1197, 19.7 mv, 365 E|BR 12.8", 0.67", 4.51cu|CL 22.6", 0.44", 3.44cu|avg 3.78, 3.20 re, 1.18
9x19 CCI/Speer GD+P |124@1155, 20.5 mv, 367 E|BR 13.2", 0.62", 3.99cu|CL 16.1", 0.53", 3.55cu|avg 3.77, 3.46 re, 1.09
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |147@ 924, 19.4 mv, 278 E|BR 14.8", 0.57", 3.78cu|CL 14.7", 0.55", 3.49cu|avg 3.63, 3.11 re, 1.17
9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 935, 19.6 mv, 285 E|BR 13.6", 0.60", 3.85cu|CL 16.1", 0.52", 3.41cu|avg 3.63, 3.19 re, 1.14(Note that coylh missed some data points in his survey. I collected all the ones I could find on FTI into that web page several years ago.)
And by the way, if you think penetration depth is most important, the best performer of all in the data-set was this one (bare gelatin):
Code:
9x19 Hornady XTP |147@ 918, 19.3 mv, 275 E|BR 22.1", 0.44", 3.36cu|CL 20.5", 0.46", 3.41cu|avg 3.18, 3.07 re, 1.04Back to average wound volume metric, the best 9x19 load is 10% better than the 357SIG datapoint, and a regular old 115gr Gold Dot is only 17% worse. Looking at that distribution, what does 357SIG give you?
Zak Smith
Member
From the calibers-l email list, here are some results through auto glass:
I took a brief glance at .357 SIG vs .38 Super. Honestly I dont see a lot of difference and .38 Super has a longer history. Looks like something else that will have its small band of noisy defenders but will be largely ignored. .400 Cor-Bon anyone?
But then again, I think in autos it's either .45acp or 9 Luger. Anything else is just distraction.
But then again, I think in autos it's either .45acp or 9 Luger. Anything else is just distraction.
LiquidTension
Member
The University Police Department issues HKs in .357Sig. Dunno why that particular combination was chosen...
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