Crosshair
Member
Might as well post the informal test I did with 2 liter bottles again. 
Here is a link to the Big Picture.
Here is a link to the Big Picture.
Doubts about gelatin shooting
- Thread starter coylh
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DarkKnight01
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Why dont they use pigs for testing 
Mmmm Fresh pork chops n bacon anyone???
Mmmm Fresh pork chops n bacon anyone??? Sam
Member
Can't never hit two pigs exactly the same. No two pigs exactly the same.
I use water in plastic bags in an opened ended box.
Penetrate 1 layer of bag and however many inches of water.
easy to hit same same and water all same same.
Anyone can duplicate easy. Tells me how much water I can shoot and nothing else, but the bullets look pretty all warped up like that.
Sam
I use water in plastic bags in an opened ended box.
Penetrate 1 layer of bag and however many inches of water.
easy to hit same same and water all same same.
Anyone can duplicate easy. Tells me how much water I can shoot and nothing else, but the bullets look pretty all warped up like that.
Sam
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BluesBear
member
Does anyone here have any experience with Corbin SIM-TESTâ„¢ media?
They say it's protein-based simulated animal muscle tissue.
It needs no refrigeration and can be remelted and reused.
You need about two inches per 250fps velocity.
It comed in blocks, 12x7x2.5". Six blocks are $129.
Sounds too good to be true. But Corbin is a respected company.
They say it's protein-based simulated animal muscle tissue.
It needs no refrigeration and can be remelted and reused.
You need about two inches per 250fps velocity.
It comed in blocks, 12x7x2.5". Six blocks are $129.
Sounds too good to be true. But Corbin is a respected company.
Very refreshing to read intelligent posts about bullet testing here, instead of the Marshall/Sanow/Ayoob BS that permeates the firearms press and most of the bulletin boards. I especially liked the reference to my old friend Gene Wolberg, who passed away 5 years ago this month. Unlike some of the other famous forensic guys, Gene never sold out, and continued to pursue science till his untimely death.
Gelatin testing has been poo-poo'ed by the gun magazine wannbee's for so long, that way too many well meaning folks think it's not a valid science. It is, and Gene proved it more than 15 years ago.
Gelatin testing has been poo-poo'ed by the gun magazine wannbee's for so long, that way too many well meaning folks think it's not a valid science. It is, and Gene proved it more than 15 years ago.
That would mean you would only need 8" of block to test most .45 acp ammunition. Since most of the forensic experts, (Fackler, Wolberg, etc.), require 12"-14" of penetration for a round to work, doesn't seem to add up.
Are you sure it's 2" per 250fps?
Yooper
Member
Any testing medium is valid for the relative differences between loads. In the absolute sense, testing media have little correlation with the variety of tissues encountered in shooting animals or humans. As long as the medium is consistent in hardness and elasticity values, it can be used to compare various cartriges one to another.
Yooper
Member
Animal tissue is a composite of bone, muscle, skin, organ membranes, fluids, etc. It's pretty difficult to approximate the variety of tissues with a homogeneous medium. Bullet performance in animal tissue will probably vary somewhat with the angle of the shot.
When bones are hit, it's almost impossible to predict bullet performance, even with rifle projectiles. It's why Fackler and Wolberg ignored shootings involving them, and instead concentrated on soft tissue wounds. 10% gelatin mimicked real life shootings almost 100%.
Shawn Dodson
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Standardization is in the works. See http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/session9/minisi.ppt . (Note: this link downloads a large PowerPoint file. Patience is required.)
Prior to adopting 10% ordnance gelatin as a realistic soft tissue simulant, the FBI correlated results to over 200 shooting incidents. ("Ammuntion Tests, 1989." Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA. January 1990, p 2.)
The resistance to penetration that a bullet encounters is mostly the result of inertial forces, which varies little between soft tissues. As a result, different tissue densities have little affect on penetration and expansion performance.
The other resistance a bullet encounters is shear force, which is trivial compared to inertial forces. Differences in tissue density affect the shear forces encountered by a penetrating bullet, but only at very low velocities (substantially less than the velocity where all bullet expansion occurs).
In essence, various tissue densities have little effect on a bullet's terminal performance.
Properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin reproduces both the inertial forces and shear force of *typical* soft tissues. Shear force is verified by calibration.
Water doesn't possess shear force, which is why bullets fired into water penetrate deeper than bullets fired into gelatin and flesh, although all exhibit similar expansion performance. Expansion and penetration performance in water is the result of inertial forces only.
Properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin serves as a realistic soft tissue simulant that provides a reasonable indication of bullet terminal performance.
Prior to adopting 10% ordnance gelatin as a realistic soft tissue simulant, the FBI correlated results to over 200 shooting incidents. ("Ammuntion Tests, 1989." Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA. January 1990, p 2.)
The vital tissues we're trying to damage and destroy are all soft tissues. Bullets are designed to expand in soft tissues. How a bullet performs against bone depends on several variables (depth of location along wound track, angle of impact, thickness, etc.). Therefore terminal performance tests including bone provide data of little practical value.
The resistance to penetration that a bullet encounters is mostly the result of inertial forces, which varies little between soft tissues. As a result, different tissue densities have little affect on penetration and expansion performance.
The other resistance a bullet encounters is shear force, which is trivial compared to inertial forces. Differences in tissue density affect the shear forces encountered by a penetrating bullet, but only at very low velocities (substantially less than the velocity where all bullet expansion occurs).
In essence, various tissue densities have little effect on a bullet's terminal performance.
Properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin reproduces both the inertial forces and shear force of *typical* soft tissues. Shear force is verified by calibration.
Water doesn't possess shear force, which is why bullets fired into water penetrate deeper than bullets fired into gelatin and flesh, although all exhibit similar expansion performance. Expansion and penetration performance in water is the result of inertial forces only.
Properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin serves as a realistic soft tissue simulant that provides a reasonable indication of bullet terminal performance.
BluesBear
member
Elmer, I was just quoting, verbatim, their latest advertisement in Handloader Magazine.
I'm not educated enough to understand the the effects of various test media and the corelation between deflection angles,velocity and terminal expansion. That's why I carry a Kimber .45 ACP loaded with Winchester 230 gr JHP's. Almost 100 years of service and experience has proven (at least to me) that the pistol design works and 230 gr bullets will kill a human. If I do my part, the pistol and ammo will do their's. I'm not "anti-progress". I just don't get excited by anothet fraction of an inch of penetration or thousands of an inch expansion in Jello.
Here's where we split the sheets. .45 hardball's anecdotal reputation doesn't match documented shootings by wb folks. Way better than the other FMJ pistol calibers of the time though.
Although my Dad, a decorated veteran of the Normandy Invasion, firmly believed that a .45 could knock a man down, even if he were hit in the hand.
The popular press would also have you believe that a 9mm is not a good stopper, especially with 147 grain bullets. Fortunately, the crooks in LA, San Diego, and other cities must not read Sanow, Aboob, and the other "experts", because they keep falling down and dying, frequently when hit with one round.
Although my Dad, a decorated veteran of the Normandy Invasion, firmly believed that a .45 could knock a man down, even if he were hit in the hand.
The popular press would also have you believe that a 9mm is not a good stopper, especially with 147 grain bullets. Fortunately, the crooks in LA, San Diego, and other cities must not read Sanow, Aboob, and the other "experts", because they keep falling down and dying, frequently when hit with one round.
I don't beleive that a shot to the hand will knock a man down. I also don't believe that a blast from a 12 gauge shotgun will knock a man backward 15 feet. Sir Isaac Newton said that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Any gun that would fire a projectile hard enough to knock a man down would also knock down the shooter. I made my choice for my primary carry weapon based on what weapon I shoot best and can rely on.
To paraphrase Col. Cooper: "Ballistic tables are fine to read during a session on the throne, but don't read too much into them." Same goes for gellatin test results.
To paraphrase Col. Cooper: "Ballistic tables are fine to read during a session on the throne, but don't read too much into them." Same goes for gellatin test results.
I quoted my Dad to illustrate the problems with anecdotal information, even from those that were there...
I'm glad you're happy with your equipment. Shooting well is more important than caliber or bullet choice.
Col. Cooper moved us out of the dark ages, and I appreciate him for that. But studying what projectiles do to living bodies, and finding medium that will mimic tissue, has brought us the service ammunition we have today.
.45 hardball is better than 9mm hardball. But a good 9mm load like Federal HST, or Speer Gold Dot, or Remington GS, that will expand to 70-90 caliber, while penetrating 12", has a better chance of stopping a fight. The same bullet styles in .45 are even better.
I'm glad you're happy with your equipment. Shooting well is more important than caliber or bullet choice.
Col. Cooper moved us out of the dark ages, and I appreciate him for that. But studying what projectiles do to living bodies, and finding medium that will mimic tissue, has brought us the service ammunition we have today.
.45 hardball is better than 9mm hardball. But a good 9mm load like Federal HST, or Speer Gold Dot, or Remington GS, that will expand to 70-90 caliber, while penetrating 12", has a better chance of stopping a fight. The same bullet styles in .45 are even better.
Zak Smith
Member
Nope, totally utterly wrong.
Shawn Dodson's post reinforces my post #25.
Clearly some people in this thread are interested in scientific truth, while some people are content to repeat their own dogma.
-z
BluesBear
member
Now don't go dissin' the "Strassbourg Study".
The Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy said those tests were real.
The Easter Bunny left me some MagSafe's in a plastic egg and the Tooth Fairy put one Glaser Silver and one Glaser Blue under my pillow when I lost a tooth in a bar fight back in 1977.
They both couldn't be wrong could they? Maybe I'd better play it safe and ask Santa.
What really gets me is that it required a lot of manpower locate and wrangle 600 of those rare goats. That's a lot of sheep**** to shovel.
Then they shot them, timed how long it took them to fall over, and even wrote it all down.
And then somebody had to butcher them to recover the bullets and then dispose of the carcasses.
And with all of those epeople involved no one remembered to bring a camera?
Now there are people who claim to have photos of Bigfoot or the Lockness Monster. But NO ONE has ever come forward and claimed to have any photos from "Stressberg".
Not a single picture of a smiling person holding a recovered 4.9mm Hottentot Rimless UberShort Rimfire Magnum short-jacketed, hollow point spitzer, bonded tri-metal non-toxic, boat-tail gas-check bullet perfectly mushroomed to .986 caliber?
They said they used goats but in reality it was just Sheep Dip.
So until someone at Foto-Mat finds the lost negatives from the great ballistic goat shoot and barbeque we'll just have to depend on gelatin tests for REAL data.
You know what they say...
There's ALWAYS room for Jell-O!
The Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy said those tests were real.
The Easter Bunny left me some MagSafe's in a plastic egg and the Tooth Fairy put one Glaser Silver and one Glaser Blue under my pillow when I lost a tooth in a bar fight back in 1977.
They both couldn't be wrong could they? Maybe I'd better play it safe and ask Santa.
What really gets me is that it required a lot of manpower locate and wrangle 600 of those rare goats. That's a lot of sheep**** to shovel.
Then they shot them, timed how long it took them to fall over, and even wrote it all down.
And then somebody had to butcher them to recover the bullets and then dispose of the carcasses.
And with all of those epeople involved no one remembered to bring a camera?
Now there are people who claim to have photos of Bigfoot or the Lockness Monster. But NO ONE has ever come forward and claimed to have any photos from "Stressberg".
Not a single picture of a smiling person holding a recovered 4.9mm Hottentot Rimless UberShort Rimfire Magnum short-jacketed, hollow point spitzer, bonded tri-metal non-toxic, boat-tail gas-check bullet perfectly mushroomed to .986 caliber?
They said they used goats but in reality it was just Sheep Dip.
So until someone at Foto-Mat finds the lost negatives from the great ballistic goat shoot and barbeque we'll just have to depend on gelatin tests for REAL data.
You know what they say...
There's ALWAYS room for Jell-O!
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