BADUNAME13
Member
Have you ever unexpectedly been 'flashed' in the dark with a 100 Lumen + light?
Try it.
Does your SD long gun have a light?
- Thread starter ChristopherG
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Have you ever unexpectedly been 'flashed' in the dark with a 100 Lumen + light?
Try it.
Hanzo581
Member
My lights on my weapons are not for searching the house, they are for target recognition before pulling the trigger, by the time you see the light it means my weapon is pointed at you and I am deciding whether or not to shoot.
So lights do not give away you position in every circumstance. AND flashing someone in the face with 100 lumens in a pitch black house can be a great deterrent on its own.
To answer the question, my 870 has a surefire forend, and my XD45 has a TLR-1.
So lights do not give away you position in every circumstance. AND flashing someone in the face with 100 lumens in a pitch black house can be a great deterrent on its own.
To answer the question, my 870 has a surefire forend, and my XD45 has a TLR-1.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
You can just shoot at that huge purple blob thats taking up 90% of your vision
weapon mounted light + momentary switch. maybe a handheld light in the pocket if I have that kind of time.
JTHunter
Member
Like several other posters, my primary HD gun is a handgun with a light in my weak hand. I have enough light in the house (unless the power is out) to see forms but not colors. If I see something moving, I'll line up on it first (from cover) then flash them.
Long guns give them too much of an opportunity to grab the barrel and also make it hard to turn quickly in a narrow hallway.
Long guns give them too much of an opportunity to grab the barrel and also make it hard to turn quickly in a narrow hallway.
BADUNAME13
Member
I thought that... at my first CQB class...
Few more...
And such...
Then many houses in Iraq.
You are wrong, but it takes training.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Exactly! Having a weaponlight gives you options, being without, leaves you with few.
That's easy and fairly obvious, don't press the trigger.
IMHO, that opinion is formed and perpetuated from the fact that most folks only have access to an indoor pistol range and thus, the handgun is the only thing they're able to practice with and ultimately, what they think is best for defense. It simply isn't true. Any threat who has ahold of the barrel of your rifle is not in the best of positions.
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KodiakBeer
member
That's a good point, but... I just can't imagine wanting to turn it on at any point. As soon as you turn it on you're exposed to both the person you are pointing it at, and anybody else present that you are not pointing it at. Unless you live in a cave you're going to be able to see pretty well with just the ambient light - until you illuminate something and lose your night vision.
I regularly walk into a hunting area in complete darkness without ever turning on a light. You can see quite well under those circumstances. Try it.
Jed Carter
Member
The only "flash" they will see is my muzzle flash. There are good arguments for having a flashlight, after you are blinded by your own muzzle flare, but the first encounter should be a total suprise to the perps. Lights are for those that want an intruder to leave, I'm not timid I will give them the same chance they gave me, no chance at all, no quarter, no hesitation. In my home I really do not need illumination, It has a lot of windows, this discusion is a lot like paper or plastic, metal vs poly, rail no rail. There are at least two different viewpoints, both are correct for their supporters
kwelz
Member
I think an important question that hasn't been asked is this.
How many people here have been involved in night shooting or night training?
I have done limited night time training. On a clear, moonlit night it is hard to make out targets. Once the first round goes off your night vision is done. Without a light you are in trouble once that happens.
How many people here have been involved in night shooting or night training?
I have done limited night time training. On a clear, moonlit night it is hard to make out targets. Once the first round goes off your night vision is done. Without a light you are in trouble once that happens.
I have lights on all my home defense long guns and handguns. The light will compensate for loss of night vision, it can blind attackers and most importantly help ID the threat. There is no rule that you have to leave it on, or that you can't move and relocate once you used it. Those who don't have a light on their guns do you use a handheld flashlight? I keep one of those on me as well and can easily transition between the two when using a handgun. I have them on my long guns because once I feel the need to use it I will be in a defensive position. I have them on my handgun as well as a handheld light for checking bumps in the night.
statelineblues
Member
I have been trained in handgun-strong hand/flashlight-weak hand, and find having a weapon mounted light much easier to use.
My HD is a Rem 870 12ga with UTG Tactical Light.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
You turn on the light and your target is illuminated and YOU gain the tactical advantage.
And you are comfortable in indentifying a threat in the dark, with only ambient light and making the decision to press the trigger on a live human being based on what you see?
IMHO, too many folks have put way too little thought into this.
Definitely not, nor do I attach lasers to my gun.
My reasoning, is pretty simple. Attaching extra equipment to firearms severely effects their natural pointing ability, making them muzzle heavy and sluggish to bring on target. In my experience, anything qualifying as CQB (like a home invasion), is going to be a game of point and shoot. The faster you are able to hit your target the more likely it is that you will survive. Then there's the already mentioned "shoot me, I'm right here" factor. Clearing a house, is markedly different from a typical scenario taking place inside a home. You are on the defensive (yes, you would be taking an offensive approach, but it's they who are on your turf, thus your response is more of a counter offensive), you probably aren't wearing body armor, and you probably don't have three buddies who are armed to the teeth backing you up. But you do have advantages. In my house, I'm familiar enough with my surroundings that if I had to I could navigate it in total darkness and do so quietly. However, in reality there's quite a bit of ambient light, plenty to shoot by anyhow. As for target recognition; if it's not me, and it's not my wife or the dog, then it must be a target. And in my state, that qualifies as legal justification for whatever force may be necessary...
My reasoning, is pretty simple. Attaching extra equipment to firearms severely effects their natural pointing ability, making them muzzle heavy and sluggish to bring on target. In my experience, anything qualifying as CQB (like a home invasion), is going to be a game of point and shoot. The faster you are able to hit your target the more likely it is that you will survive. Then there's the already mentioned "shoot me, I'm right here" factor. Clearing a house, is markedly different from a typical scenario taking place inside a home. You are on the defensive (yes, you would be taking an offensive approach, but it's they who are on your turf, thus your response is more of a counter offensive), you probably aren't wearing body armor, and you probably don't have three buddies who are armed to the teeth backing you up. But you do have advantages. In my house, I'm familiar enough with my surroundings that if I had to I could navigate it in total darkness and do so quietly. However, in reality there's quite a bit of ambient light, plenty to shoot by anyhow. As for target recognition; if it's not me, and it's not my wife or the dog, then it must be a target. And in my state, that qualifies as legal justification for whatever force may be necessary...
CoRoMo
Member
I'm always surprised by the numbers of people who think a long gun will only give the attacker the ability to grab the barrel and pull it out of your hands. Some myths just won't die. Or maybe this speaks to their lack of skills, inabilities, and ignorance. I don't know.
Also, those who don't know how to use a weapon light or laser sight; always surprising. Although the part that I can agree with them on is, since they haven't trained for darkness and don't know how to properly use a weapon light, then yeah, it'll probably just give away your position and the intruder will shoot you. Without training and knowledge, you don't stand much of a chance in the dark to begin with.
Also, those who don't know how to use a weapon light or laser sight; always surprising. Although the part that I can agree with them on is, since they haven't trained for darkness and don't know how to properly use a weapon light, then yeah, it'll probably just give away your position and the intruder will shoot you. Without training and knowledge, you don't stand much of a chance in the dark to begin with.
KodiakBeer
member
Unless there's more than one of them. Even if there is only one person, you've just given yourself away and now the odds have gone from in your favor (you're hidden) to even - you're both exposed.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
As long as you are okay with shooting somebody in the dark, without being able to properly identify them as a threat, proceed as normal.
The advantages far outweight the disadvantages, real or perceived and it is my opinion that most of the detractors have never used a mounted weaponlight.
KodiakBeer
member
I'm not going to shoot anyone until I've ID'd them. I just don't see any advantage in throwing away my advantage by IDing myself to them.
Beaux Nehr
Member
- Joined
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KodiakBeer said:
This idea doesn't stand up to critical consideration.
Consider the following in the perspective of the intruder:
1.) What are you supposed to focus on if you intend on hitting your target? y\Your front sight.
2.) What will you likely focus on if you haven't been trained to focus on a front sight? The person you're shooting at.
3.) If someone turns a bright light on in your face, what will you focus on: the target, or the 1" diameter very bright orb?
4.) What does it mean if a bright light suddenlly comes on in your face? You've already been identified, targeted, and are way behind the curve.
kwelz
Member
And in the dark how are you going to identify your target?
I still stand by my statement that the people who won't use a light are those with the least actual experience. No offense meant but reality plays out different than the scenarios we often play out in our head
A dark house is not someplace I want to be without a weapon mounted light. Handheld lights present their own problems, and In the chaos of a fight the bad guy is not going to have time to calmly identify you and target you from your light source.
You don't have much trigger time using lights or other equipment do you? Sure it is possible to load up a gun with to much junk. But a light on a pistol or a light, laser and VFG on a carbine don't change the balance to where they can't be used effectively. In fact a well designed carbine will be balanced properly with them on there.
I still stand by my statement that the people who won't use a light are those with the least actual experience. No offense meant but reality plays out different than the scenarios we often play out in our head
A dark house is not someplace I want to be without a weapon mounted light. Handheld lights present their own problems, and In the chaos of a fight the bad guy is not going to have time to calmly identify you and target you from your light source.
You don't have much trigger time using lights or other equipment do you? Sure it is possible to load up a gun with to much junk. But a light on a pistol or a light, laser and VFG on a carbine don't change the balance to where they can't be used effectively. In fact a well designed carbine will be balanced properly with them on there.
ChristopherG
Member
I have a similar suspicion, though I'd phrase it a little more delicately: I'd bet those who won't use a light don't have much experience in either training or competition shooting in low or no light. For example: the idea that retaining a gun's 'natural pointing ability' by not accessorizing it is more important than the improvement to shooting given by a weapon-mounted light suggests a lack of the kinds of structured, timed, measured and evaluated shooting you do in either training or competition.
It took me exactly 1 (one) IDPA night match to realize lighting was EVERYTHING when shooting in the dark or near dark. Numerous subsequent trainings have driven it home.
BADUNAME13
Member
Does anyone see a problem with HAVING a weapons mounted light and a handheld... which gives you the OPTION to use them if you want?
(Other than the guy who thinks it'll 'slow you down'... which... sorry, must agree with "Get some experence")
I like options.
Why limit them.
(Other than the guy who thinks it'll 'slow you down'... which... sorry, must agree with "Get some experence")
I like options.
Why limit them.
waterhouse
Member
Really? An 870 weighs around 7 pounds. Most ARs are right around that weight as well. A weapon light can weigh under 4 ounces. I'd wager that blindfolded you couldn't pick up and swing a long gun and tell whether it had a Surefire X300 or similar somewhere near the end
ConstitutionCowboy
member
My home defense "long" gun isn't very long. It's a beretta CX4-Storm in 45ACP. It has a light on the left side and a red dot scope on top. I just clear the path for my wife and her Mares Leg in 44-40.
Woody
Woody
10-96
Member
No, when I smoked, it always made me light my own cigarette.
Seriously, I always tend to dislike the general way threads go when it comes to low light shooting. It SEEMS that folks tend to generally accept that shooting is either full light or completely pitch dark. Very seldom is it pitch dark around where I live/stay- I most always sleep in dark areas and have some kind of light on in possible access areas. (Intruder is illuminated and has deminished night vision)- this is planning one's home, apartment, motel, etc with some degree of tactical forethought. I would not choose to have a light on my weapon. I train to fire whatever I choose for HD with a handheld flashlight because, if a flashlight is out within frequent reach and useage, I know if it will work. Whereas, if I have a weapon mounted flashlight, I don't know that I would personally have the forethought to check it's functionality on a regualr basis.
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