DOJ "smart gun" review

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Hopefully this is not a duplicate. An interesting read on DOJ status of "smart gun" technology as of June 2013. Pages 34 to 77 describe how actions are controlled in terms of the actual mechanics.

Armatix seems to be the most challenging for thieves or adolescents at play looking to modify them.

And "Armatix reports ongoing development projects for bolt-action rifles, semi- and fully automatic rifles, breakdown rifles, shotguns, and revolvers. Armatix reports that it has tested a 9 mm pistol and a .44 caliber revolver and anticipate making these models commercially avaialble in the future."

Most of the remaining are either peening and bubblegum modifiable or not yet deliverable. Of these, Safe Gun Technology's proposed full gun modifications may prove challenging if actually developed.

Kodiak looks interesting except that it has a quarter turn manual lock to enable use in dead battery situations. Uh, oh.
 

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I say these guns be a quick way to close your doors for lack of sales. I will never own one and neither will most people . What you going to do make the millions of real guns out here illegal . When I need a gun I want something that works right now Not if I have on a ring or jewelry .
What if its a ring and I am right handed but that disabled at start of fight Am I suppose to take time if even possible to switch ring to left hand to get back in fight.
 
The tech is interesting , but it will just add layers of complexity to relatively simple process! No thank you ! Not for me ! It is probably another company owned by one of Obamas buddies and will profit from a fat federal grant , then go belly up with nothing to show for it ! And that is the upside ! Kevin
 
I guess you'll really appreciate that one supplier suggests firearms owners might like to have the chip embedded to make sure the chip won't be lost or forgotten. :evil:
 
From the reading I have done on the Armatix system, it would appear to be trivially easy for someone with ill intent to remotely disable, since the gun shuts down if it loses the signal from the watch.

Armatix's website also boasts that the gun can be configured to fire only when pointed downrange at an approved shooting range, and they actually consider that a feature rather than a bug.

http://www.armatix.com/TRS.781.0.html?&L=1
 
Armatix is German so I assume that they are coming from the view that firearms are for target shooting only. No place for firearms in self defense in Germany?
 
No matter where you stand on the issue, more information is better.

Obviously I never want to see these mandated (I'm sure nobody here does), but I would like to see viable options on the market for people who choose them. For a responsible gun owner who has a spouse or child who struggles with depression, these are a great solution. For school districts that allow teachers to carry, these are a good solution (statistically, I'm sure cases of a kid trying to grab a gun off a teacher will be more common than active shooters entering the school). More options on the market is never a bad thing.

I'd trust bracelet/ring-activated "smart guns" FAR more than biometrically-activated ones. The success rates for biometric IDs on smartphones are about 50%-90% per attempt according to reviews of the Galaxy S5 and iPhone 5S (both of which have fingerprint scanners). In comparison, keyless car remote setups, which have been in luxury cars for years, seem far more reliable.
 
Some big names took tax money to develop smart guns, Colt, S&W, and FN are all listed along with the smaller companies.
 
The feature that the gun can be overridden to prevent it firing is going to be met with legal challenges.

That falls under the "depriving you of your property" Constitutional right, and there is a large volume of case law to prevent that along with the clear interpretation. It would be no different that having your cell phone turned off when authorities demanded it, or the ignition system disabled to stop you in traffic.

To see that passed, I would expect some suspension of the First Amendment to quelch any discontent.

Of course, for some, there are no inalienable rights, they are only a social compact that exists by general consensus, to be granted or taken away as the majority please. When that becomes the majority belief, then things like the above will have to be meekly accepted for the common good.

Ah, brave new world.

You can see how that's working out in Britain and Australia.
 
So Obama orders a study to be made for Holder's DOJ. Does anyone seriously believe the goal is safety and not an effective gun ban? There is talk of use by law enforcement, but it is a near certainty that LE will be exempt and the "smart gun" will be imposed by edict on the public, perhaps along with an order for the confiscation and destruction of all guns not meeting the new requirements. ("If you like your gun, you can keep your gun.")

Jim
 
I'm not going to demonize a company for taking money to develop a technology if they would be put out of business if congress passed a law requiring it. S&W, for instance, has stock holders and if you are risking being put permanently out of business at the whim of congress it makes investing in you bad business sense. They may be doing it for no other reason than to protect their own assets. The answer isn't to blame the companies, its to stop electing the idiots who keep pushing these laws. When they don't have to fear passage of these asinine laws they will stop wasting time developing nonsense like "smart guns".
 
The future of these devices is still a question.

Other than Armatix all the mechanisms can easily be defeated and turned into dumb guns by jamming linkage. They're pretty useless in preventing use by thieves or curious teenagers. Jam a dc motor into firing position, remove a solenoid that jams the linkage movement, etc.

Even SGT's split firing pin is a no brainer. Their concept of redesigning all phases of the action might be interesting, though.

Armatix depends on a specially designed slide rather than the electronics to finally defeat thieves. I will be curious to see whether it really meets the claims. Using the technology on bolt action rifles and revolvers pretty much eliminates the custom slide, so it will be interesting to see whether they revert to linkage blocks as the others have done.

Kodiak's sealed unit sounds interesting, but they admit that it can be defeated with addition of some parts. Then there is that quarter turn lock which is a screaming invitation to modification.
 
Test #1 consists of watching if it gets universal adoption by law enforcement and military. If it proves consistently reliable under daily use and combat I might consider it.

On the other hand most military stuff is too expensive for me (ACOG, night vision etc) so I may pass even if it is reliable.

I'd trust bracelet/ring-activated "smart guns" FAR more than biometrically-activated ones. The success rates for biometric IDs on smartphones are about 50%-90% per attempt according to reviews of the Galaxy S5 and iPhone 5S (both of which have fingerprint scanners). In comparison, keyless car remote setups, which have been in luxury cars for years, seem far more reliable.

Biometric is still in the junk phase. I have had fingerprint readers on laptop computers for a long time now. They suck. Cut a finger, that one is out, burn a finger that one is out, greasy fingers, bloody fingers, dry fingers, lotion on your fingers.....

Then the kicker, I took off my fleece one day and hit the fingerprint reader with a nice burst of static - dead forever.

My gym (24 Hour fitness) has fingerprint readers, they have a little tub of goop next to them to try to get them to work better, even on a good day it's a 10 second delay.

Anyone who wants to put a fingerprint reader on your gun has ill intent towards your safety.
 
PedalBiker, I think biometrics are pretty much a dead issue.

Among other things, as I mentioned elsewhere some of us do not have fingerprints. I can't even use a luggage locker at an airport--so this 68 year old has to haul luggage around while looking for dining or shopping until the flight boards.

Actually, in the last I'm playing the sympathy card as many of us fingerprintless seniors are still quite robust. But, hey, there's this card and that card and if one works in a political situation, what the heck?
 
Biometric is still in the junk phase. I have had fingerprint readers on laptop computers for a long time now. They suck. Cut a finger, that one is out, burn a finger that one is out, greasy fingers, bloody fingers, dry fingers, lotion on your fingers.....

Then the kicker, I took off my fleece one day and hit the fingerprint reader with a nice burst of static - dead forever.

My gym (24 Hour fitness) has fingerprint readers, they have a little tub of goop next to them to try to get them to work better, even on a good day it's a 10 second delay.

Anyone who wants to put a fingerprint reader on your gun has ill intent towards your safety.

Plus on an episode of 'Mythbusters' they were easily able to defeat a fingerprint reader with a phony fingerprint.
 
I worked one job where a hand scanner was used to clock you in and out. If that specific hand was injured, HR had to jump thru the hoop where the back of the left hand had to be used and a new scan made. It was thumb directional.

They went to that length because shop foreman were clocking in their buddies even if they were late, etc.

So, adding any sort of control and then proofing it by field testing it means those who would be the guinea pigs will experience what failure means in that system. If the gun locks up at the wrong time, then people can and will be killed who shouldn't be. It then goes to whether the vendor can prove it will not experience any more failures than the norm, in order to sidestep liability.

Which LEO or military Department is going to be first in line for that? No, what we will likely see is foreign testing on their soil, not the loss of American lives until proven foolproof. And by foolproof, it must be immersion proof in any solution that men might find in a working environment.

Guns get dropped into toilets, buckets of chemicals, whatever. We spray some pretty noxious solvents on them, too, just cleaning them. The lockout unit has to be absolute proof against them all. More than the cartridges, which, as we know, aren't.

There are physical limits to what mechanisms and electronics can endure. If we won't market the water resistant cell phone, why then expect a diesel fuel proof smart gun?

If it IS offered, at what cost? In strictly financial terms, what are we getting for the money? All it has as a selling point is that you can't be shot by your own gun, but that is only if it's taken from you, and why bother? If you have one, just use it, not the one somebody else has.

It's a low probability issue with a high cost for the individual. So, the real point of the exercise isn't protecting the owner - we already have that basis with dumb guns. And securing them prevents unauthorized use, which already happens to a high degree, and is getting better.

No, all that is the smoke and mirrors of the agenda, what the anti gunners want it the ability to keep you from firing your gun. If they can get that, then you simply don't have one when you need to use it, like, during unauthorized searches to remove it from your possession.

If they already existed, would the governments of NY and CT have much less disincentive to confiscate them? As it is, they can't. Accepting smart guns into the mix, they can, and will, be able to take them away as they see fit.

But, some say, that would never happen. And yet, some of us remember, there was no idea that an AWB would pass in Congress, or that NY and CT would outlaw AR15's and require their turn in or destruction.

It's what sometimes amazes me, that some would find it acceptable and be willing to pay more for the "privilege" to own one. Others of us find that mindset unacceptable. It very much is class warfare on that point, I have one, you don't, because you can't afford it.

Same agenda was used demonizing "Saturday Night" specials, when the reality is that most criminals prefer whatever duty handgun the professionals are using. If they can't buy it, they steal it. It's why police cruisers are no longer left unattended because the word is out, there's a full auto M16 in the trunk.

So, how do we retrofit all the existing millions of guns, and who pays the bill? Smart guns won't be viable unless they all are, and if you are surcharged hundreds of dollars a gun to render them legal, don't expect your local government or Uncle Sam to do it. And that conversion will have to be done by a certified compliant gun smith, to ensure no monkey business is going on, and the unit will need to be "sealed" same as gasoline pumps or a warranted product to show if it was tampered with. And that will require periodic inspections to prove it. Just like sniff testing your car is in compliance with emissions laws.

Miss the date and you are now in possession of an illegal firearm, with a warrant out for your arrest on sight. When they bust you, they confiscate ALL the other guns and whatever else you were in possession of at the time of the crime, including your motor vehicle, and good luck getting that all back in the next few years, the current working standard.

"I'll buy that!" doesn't even begin to cover it. We can't even get the TSA to follow their own rules on traveling with human sourced milk, but we don't see any problems with smart guns?
 
LOL, these smart gun technologies are good for a chuckle. as long as they don't actually get footing that is, now that would be bad.

It shows time and again, people taht have no clue how guns work and don't have experience, are useless (and worse) when it comes to setting policy.
 
So what are they going to do about the hundreds of millions of "dumb guns" out there?
 
So what are they going to do about the hundreds of millions of "dumb guns" out there?

Judging from the recent magazine bans they'd be non-transferrable. They go when you go.

Nothing is actually being proposed here. This document is just a technology review.
 
The smart gun

Will have bluetooth and be able to sync with all of your devices. You will need to be able to call your gun to activate it. Your gun will ask you for some information just like your bank. If you can't provide it your access will be denied.

Every gun will have 2 access codes. One will be yours that you can change and one will be someone elses that you can't change. The people with the other access code will be known as administrators. Any guess who will have the other access code?

S&W already has a mechanical lock and they lose sales everyday because of it. They have taken it off of some of their more popular J frames. Even if congress were somehow able to pass a bill to mandate some new technology that would work it has some fundamental 4A hurdles.

It's not going to happen in my lifetime just because it was in an issue of popular mechanics.
 
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