I want your ideas. There was a woman whose husband ramed her car (that her sister was driving and had her small child in the back). He got out of his vehicle and busted out the passenger window, dragged her through it and stabbed the woman 22 times practally gutting her on a very busy street in Ft. Smith Arkansas a few days ago. Of coarse this woman did all the right things (I guess) she had moved into a shelter and filed for a divorce and of coarse had the usual restraining order. I am really miffed in that I do not think that the goverment officials tell these women at anytime they are in contact with them of their right to own and have a firearm and they can carry concealed in Arkansas.( I'm sure they tell them of every other right they have) Could a law be passed that demands the Judge that orders the restraining order tell the woman of her rights. Is there some law that could be written that someone must tell the women of their rights at some point. There were 5 people trying to get this man off of her in the middle of the road and one even had a tire tool(no firearm) but to no avail. By the time the police arrived she was dead. The guy in sitting in jail. This was a horrible incident.
Domestic Violence and CCW??
- Thread starter Kim
- Start date
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TheFederalistWeasel
member
As a cop I discovered quickly that no one could hold the hand of society forever. It’s not your or my responsibility to protect everyone or even see that everyone has the means to be protected.
That sounds harsh, perhaps…
But each one of us is given a brain and the ability to make our own decisions, I find it hard to believe that she was totally unaware of guns and the fact that people do own them it was Arkansas after all.
She was a victim of a brutal crime and God willing the guy will be put to death for his actions. Maybe another woman in a similar situation reading this story will make that decision w/o government having telling her to exercise her rights to self defense.
Far too many people rely far too deeply on government as it is, I cannot count the number of people I’ve told this very same thing to.
It’s not my job to protect you as an individual only the citizenry as a whole, if you live in a state where the liberals have taken away that right then it’s time to move or accept the fact you will someday become a victim.
That sounds harsh, perhaps…
But each one of us is given a brain and the ability to make our own decisions, I find it hard to believe that she was totally unaware of guns and the fact that people do own them it was Arkansas after all.
She was a victim of a brutal crime and God willing the guy will be put to death for his actions. Maybe another woman in a similar situation reading this story will make that decision w/o government having telling her to exercise her rights to self defense.
Far too many people rely far too deeply on government as it is, I cannot count the number of people I’ve told this very same thing to.
It’s not my job to protect you as an individual only the citizenry as a whole, if you live in a state where the liberals have taken away that right then it’s time to move or accept the fact you will someday become a victim.
HungSquirrel
Member
Even citizens who live in gun states are usually ignorant of their rights. I live in Alabama and used to think CCWs were only given to a select few people in most states. Little did I know it is damn cheap and easy to get one here and in Florida. Not everyone knows about packing.org.
My point is that she went to court and got a restraining order. I think someone should have the duty to tell her of her rights ALL OF THEM. They have sure made it CLEAR that she can go to court and get a restraining order. All people do not realize they have the right to own firearms or even know about CCW. This is not something you see the goverment advertising or editorials written about to let citizens know.(Except in a negative manner). I'm going to talk with some of my Senators and Reps about this. I just wanted some ideas. You sure wont see NOW or the ACLU get behind really empowering women and protecting them. They mislead them with the restraing order and give them false security.
Stand_Watie
Member
Restraining orders are a double edged sword Kim
It's my understanding they are frequently sought and given to *both* parties in a marital breakup, effectively disarming the weaker party.
It's my understanding they are frequently sought and given to *both* parties in a marital breakup, effectively disarming the weaker party.
Gordon Fink
Member
If she had had a gun, someone might have been hurt!
~G. Fink
~G. Fink
artherd
member
Some of the smartest words said on THR.
Kim- the sad truth is that the powers that be want this woman dead.
Not in so many words, but they want everyone just powerless and irresponsible enough that they can walk all over them. Not actively, but passively, over a lifetime.
We want to culture a society of near-drones. We want you all just barely, but not quite, too scared to go to work every morning. We then want you to come home, and lock your doors, DO YOUR TAXES, and huddle inside your house untill it's time to wake up and do the same thing.
Rinse and repeat, untill you die.
The last thing we want is you attaining any kind of wealth, because with wealth breeds leiusre time, and leasuire time combinded with wealth begats powerful activism. You could eventually become a threat.
No, better to be living paycheck to paycheck, terrified every day, and continue voting for us. (repub or dem, we're both the same in the end. And we've fooled you into beliving we hate each other and that each is the best 'alternative'! HA!)
Wiley
Member
Kim, it's up to you.
You know that the government can't protect everyone. You know there are ways for the individual to protect himself.
Are you involved with organizations who can get the word out to people who don't know? You already know that the government won't.
YOU need to be involved with organizations at the county, state and federal levels that will inform and work for change. And if there are none, YOU need to do it on your own.
You're the only one who can change it. An avalanche can be started by one snowflake. Be the flake!
You know that the government can't protect everyone. You know there are ways for the individual to protect himself.
Are you involved with organizations who can get the word out to people who don't know? You already know that the government won't.
YOU need to be involved with organizations at the county, state and federal levels that will inform and work for change. And if there are none, YOU need to do it on your own.
You're the only one who can change it. An avalanche can be started by one snowflake. Be the flake!
wheelgunslinger
Member
Wiley is correct in his post. You can be a deciding influence.
Heck, you could even start a non-profit that educates women on their rights (in total, not just gun rights) when they are victims of violent crime or Domestic violence.
Hmmm, a shelter with a gun range.... that'd make a lot of spousal abusers scratch their chin before they did something stupid again...
Don't be afraid to change the world for the better Kim.
Heck, you could even start a non-profit that educates women on their rights (in total, not just gun rights) when they are victims of violent crime or Domestic violence.
Hmmm, a shelter with a gun range.... that'd make a lot of spousal abusers scratch their chin before they did something stupid again...
Don't be afraid to change the world for the better Kim.
Kim, I work in Fort Smith, AR.
I posted the original thread. I actually saw the intersection and there was still blood on the street.
I've been reading the newspaper accounts of this tragedy, and I must say, I don't think a handgun would have done this woman any good at all.
I understand your feelings. I even had them when I first heard the story.
But I simply do not believe this particular woman would have been able to actually shoot the monster she was married to.
According to local news coverage, he was beating her back in 1987. The first violent incicdet that actually made a police report was in 1990.
This animal used her for batting practice for 18 years. They had been married for only two years, but they had six kids together, including a 17-year-old.
In one police report from a decade ago, he pulled a knife and threatened to kill her back then.
The animal had actually done prison time for beating and attacking on her in the past.
This was a horrifically screwed-up situation, and based on all that's come to light, I just don't believe that this woman had it in her to actually defend herself.
She hadn't attempted it in the past 18 years worth of beatings and attacks. Sixteen years into all the beatings and attacks, she acually married him.
The pathologies at work in this "relationship" are just mind-blowing.
Even if she'd had a gun, I just don't believe she would have been able to shoot her attacker.
In yesterday's paper, there ran a story wherein the dead woman's sister blamed the police for her death.........The woman stays with an abusive animal who threatens to kill her multiple times, and it's the fault of the POLICE that he gutted her like a fish on a public street????????????????
Yikes.......
hillbilly
I posted the original thread. I actually saw the intersection and there was still blood on the street.
I've been reading the newspaper accounts of this tragedy, and I must say, I don't think a handgun would have done this woman any good at all.
I understand your feelings. I even had them when I first heard the story.
But I simply do not believe this particular woman would have been able to actually shoot the monster she was married to.
According to local news coverage, he was beating her back in 1987. The first violent incicdet that actually made a police report was in 1990.
This animal used her for batting practice for 18 years. They had been married for only two years, but they had six kids together, including a 17-year-old.
In one police report from a decade ago, he pulled a knife and threatened to kill her back then.
The animal had actually done prison time for beating and attacking on her in the past.
This was a horrifically screwed-up situation, and based on all that's come to light, I just don't believe that this woman had it in her to actually defend herself.
She hadn't attempted it in the past 18 years worth of beatings and attacks. Sixteen years into all the beatings and attacks, she acually married him.
The pathologies at work in this "relationship" are just mind-blowing.
Even if she'd had a gun, I just don't believe she would have been able to shoot her attacker.
In yesterday's paper, there ran a story wherein the dead woman's sister blamed the police for her death.........The woman stays with an abusive animal who threatens to kill her multiple times, and it's the fault of the POLICE that he gutted her like a fish on a public street????????????????
Yikes.......
hillbilly
Here's the link to the story.
In my post above, I got a few details wrong.
The violence and beatings he dished out to her went on for longer than I wrote above.
Considering that they had six children before they got married, including a 17-year-old, I don't think the categories "married" or "divorced" meant a damn thing in this situation.
Considering that she did nothing to attempt to flee while he was in prison, and even went back to him after he got out of prison, I don't think "married" or "divorced" would make any difference.
This story shows me that this woman did not value her own life enough to actually defend it against this monster.
http://www.swtimes.com/archive/2005/January/25/news/1_murder_suspect.html
In my post above, I got a few details wrong.
The violence and beatings he dished out to her went on for longer than I wrote above.
Considering that they had six children before they got married, including a 17-year-old, I don't think the categories "married" or "divorced" meant a damn thing in this situation.
Considering that she did nothing to attempt to flee while he was in prison, and even went back to him after he got out of prison, I don't think "married" or "divorced" would make any difference.
This story shows me that this woman did not value her own life enough to actually defend it against this monster.
http://www.swtimes.com/archive/2005/January/25/news/1_murder_suspect.html
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Here's a link to the story wherein the dead woman's sister blames the police.
I understand she must be in grief and shock, since her sister was brutally murdered in the car seat next to her.
I understand that completely.
But I also know that the violence of the animal who did it was not a secret to the sister, or anyone else connected to or related to the victim at all.
http://www.swtimes.com/archive/2005/January/26/news/2_slain_womans_sister.html
I understand she must be in grief and shock, since her sister was brutally murdered in the car seat next to her.
I understand that completely.
But I also know that the violence of the animal who did it was not a secret to the sister, or anyone else connected to or related to the victim at all.
http://www.swtimes.com/archive/2005/January/26/news/2_slain_womans_sister.html
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megatronrules
Member
I think kim has a valid point here I agree fully someone should have mentiond an LTC to this woman and I tihnk they diddn't bacause of the fact of the times we live in. lets afce it its not "politicly correct" for an abused woman to get a gun and shoot the P.O.S. thats been abusing her and or her children,what a crock of ????. I'am talking about self defense here not her coming back with a gun and killing him for hitting her last week just to be clear. If I was a passanger in that car that guy would have gotten a couple of .45 golden sabers for his troubles.
All I can say is I was in a very simillar situation a couple years back were a friend of mine whose ex boyfriend who threatened to kill her BTW,was approching us in the parking lot of her work I was with her. He was about 30 or so feet away,he started to reach into his jacket like he was going for a weapon I don't even remember drawing my gun just realizing I had it pointed at him. I have to say not trying to sound macho here because I was scared I'am not ashamed to admit that,but him looking down the barrel of my beretta 92 stopped him cold in his tracks. I told him in a very loud athoritive voice to remove his hand from his jacket slowly which he did. she called the police and they showed up really quick turns out he had a very large hunting knife under his jacket.
I don't want to think what might have happened if I hadden't decided to go to lunch with her that day on a whim. My point here a gun made all the differance in this situation. Everyone has a right to defend themselves and they have right to be informed of thair options. This is why I favor a vermont type of carry system and no waiting period for handgun buyers.
All I can say is I was in a very simillar situation a couple years back were a friend of mine whose ex boyfriend who threatened to kill her BTW,was approching us in the parking lot of her work I was with her. He was about 30 or so feet away,he started to reach into his jacket like he was going for a weapon I don't even remember drawing my gun just realizing I had it pointed at him. I have to say not trying to sound macho here because I was scared I'am not ashamed to admit that,but him looking down the barrel of my beretta 92 stopped him cold in his tracks. I told him in a very loud athoritive voice to remove his hand from his jacket slowly which he did. she called the police and they showed up really quick turns out he had a very large hunting knife under his jacket.
I don't want to think what might have happened if I hadden't decided to go to lunch with her that day on a whim. My point here a gun made all the differance in this situation. Everyone has a right to defend themselves and they have right to be informed of thair options. This is why I favor a vermont type of carry system and no waiting period for handgun buyers.
There's one more point I want to make here.
This happened in western Arkansas.
I'm an Arkie by birth.
If there is anywhere on the face of planet earth where cops tell women they need to arm themselves, it's western Arkansas.
In western Arkansas, lever-action 30-30 rifles aren't even considered to be "real" guns....more like pickup truck fashion accessories. My mother is the one who taught me how to shoot, for example.
I really disagree with the idea that this woman died because of some governmental conspiracy to keep her defenseless.
The main reason she is dead is because this monster killed her.
And part of the reason she's dead because she did not value herself enough to take any real steps to protect herself from this monster.
hillbilly
This happened in western Arkansas.
I'm an Arkie by birth.
If there is anywhere on the face of planet earth where cops tell women they need to arm themselves, it's western Arkansas.
In western Arkansas, lever-action 30-30 rifles aren't even considered to be "real" guns....more like pickup truck fashion accessories. My mother is the one who taught me how to shoot, for example.
I really disagree with the idea that this woman died because of some governmental conspiracy to keep her defenseless.
The main reason she is dead is because this monster killed her.
And part of the reason she's dead because she did not value herself enough to take any real steps to protect herself from this monster.
hillbilly
CAS700850
Member
Hillbilly, a few weeks back 9i think) I wrote about a case I was prosecuting where a guybeat his girlfriend, and eth fight I had to get her into court and get the S.O.B. convicted. Sentencing was Tuesday.
Now, keep in mind, this woman had her face sewn back together. This was teh fourth time in the last six years that he's been convicted of beating her, and she admitted to me that she'd droppped charges a few times along the way. I held her hand, and told her I needed her help to keep her safe, but that she had to get away from this guy before he killed her. She swore up and down that he needed to go to prison, she was going to start a new life, etc.
in court, she asks to speak. Tells the judge that the guy needs counseling, and she does too, because she always pushes his buttons and does things to set him off. She tells teh judge she loves the guy and wants him to come home to her. Judge, who has seen these cases for too long, say that "it's time to forget about treating (this man) and time to start protecting society from him." Hits him with 4 years (5 years is the max.). Woman cries as tehy drag the guy out, shouting threats at her (and me).
Best part, the woman waits for me in the hallway, and begins shouting at me that it is all my fault.
AS they say around the courthouse, you can drag a horse to water, but you can't always drown it.
:banghead:
Now, keep in mind, this woman had her face sewn back together. This was teh fourth time in the last six years that he's been convicted of beating her, and she admitted to me that she'd droppped charges a few times along the way. I held her hand, and told her I needed her help to keep her safe, but that she had to get away from this guy before he killed her. She swore up and down that he needed to go to prison, she was going to start a new life, etc.
in court, she asks to speak. Tells the judge that the guy needs counseling, and she does too, because she always pushes his buttons and does things to set him off. She tells teh judge she loves the guy and wants him to come home to her. Judge, who has seen these cases for too long, say that "it's time to forget about treating (this man) and time to start protecting society from him." Hits him with 4 years (5 years is the max.). Woman cries as tehy drag the guy out, shouting threats at her (and me).
Best part, the woman waits for me in the hallway, and begins shouting at me that it is all my fault.
AS they say around the courthouse, you can drag a horse to water, but you can't always drown it.
:banghead:
I know the mental state of alot (maybe even most) of these women is a big problem. As a physician I am well aware of the alcoholism and drug abuse in both partners ususally. I"ve seen epsiodes like those above. These women alot of times are as involved in their abuse as the abuser. That is probably a big reason why no one would agree to telling them of their rights. It is one of those things the government just can not prevent. But becuse they always FEEL like they have to do something they will spend money and become more intrusive into everyones lives and accompolish nothing. And NOW and the ACLU will be whinning about these tragic events till the end of the world without ever really protecting one woman with a piece of paper, counseling, and shelters.
CAS700805, if somebody wrote that story into a novel, no one would believe it.
That's sad. And even sadder that it is typically what happens in these horrible situations.
I personally don't see how counselors and psychiatrists deal with this stuff over and over and over with such dismal results in so many cases.
Kim, I agree lots of advocacy groups and well-meaning do-gooder, crusader types use these instances to get more intrusive into our lives. And all for nothing, because no matter how intrusive they may get, they can't really "save" anyone who does not choose to be saved.
The older I get, the more I come to believe that we all really do have quite a bit of control and lots of choices to make.
I hate to quote the Eagles here, but that one line seems to me more true all the time...."So often that it happens we live our lives in chains, and never realize we have the key."
Everything about this particular case is just so sad and wasteful.
hillbilly
That's sad. And even sadder that it is typically what happens in these horrible situations.
I personally don't see how counselors and psychiatrists deal with this stuff over and over and over with such dismal results in so many cases.
Kim, I agree lots of advocacy groups and well-meaning do-gooder, crusader types use these instances to get more intrusive into our lives. And all for nothing, because no matter how intrusive they may get, they can't really "save" anyone who does not choose to be saved.
The older I get, the more I come to believe that we all really do have quite a bit of control and lots of choices to make.
I hate to quote the Eagles here, but that one line seems to me more true all the time...."So often that it happens we live our lives in chains, and never realize we have the key."
Everything about this particular case is just so sad and wasteful.
hillbilly
Thank you HillBilly
The public health statistics are clear and unambiguous - women are far more likely to be the victim of gun crime when a gun is around.
It's exceptionally rare that women are saved by packing, but all too frequent they become gun victims of domestic violence. It's far more likely that the monster (the monster she enabled) would have taken the gun from her and killed some of the children while he was on his rampage.
You cannot apply aggregate statistics to individuals. Some women have the moxy, training and responsibility to use hand guns to their advantage - statistically tho - the odds are against women.
For most, a cell phone is far better than a hand gun. This woman needed a shrink decades ago.
The public health statistics are clear and unambiguous - women are far more likely to be the victim of gun crime when a gun is around.
It's exceptionally rare that women are saved by packing, but all too frequent they become gun victims of domestic violence. It's far more likely that the monster (the monster she enabled) would have taken the gun from her and killed some of the children while he was on his rampage.
You cannot apply aggregate statistics to individuals. Some women have the moxy, training and responsibility to use hand guns to their advantage - statistically tho - the odds are against women.
For most, a cell phone is far better than a hand gun. This woman needed a shrink decades ago.
Ginger
Member
Kim,
I agree with others here that arming the woman would probably not have prevented her death.
The problem is with women themselves and I am one.
We have to start in on little girls around the age of 3 and convince them that ENTERING an abusive relationship is not only dangerous - it's stupid.
90% of all abusers (male or female) have the same set of traits. They are self-absorbed, they are control freaks, they are jealous, they are demanding and they don't have impulse control. We have to teach girls that people with traits are never worth getting to know. This isn't a woman's issue - no one should waste time or energy on these people.
We also need to educate women about the restraining orders. ROs are not a magic spell that keeps the ex away or summons the police; it's a legal document that comes into play after the bludgeoning or shooting. Women should never think that a RO offers safety.
I agree with others here that arming the woman would probably not have prevented her death.
The problem is with women themselves and I am one.
We have to start in on little girls around the age of 3 and convince them that ENTERING an abusive relationship is not only dangerous - it's stupid.
90% of all abusers (male or female) have the same set of traits. They are self-absorbed, they are control freaks, they are jealous, they are demanding and they don't have impulse control. We have to teach girls that people with traits are never worth getting to know. This isn't a woman's issue - no one should waste time or energy on these people.
We also need to educate women about the restraining orders. ROs are not a magic spell that keeps the ex away or summons the police; it's a legal document that comes into play after the bludgeoning or shooting. Women should never think that a RO offers safety.
Gordon Fink
Member
From the looks of this case, neither a gun nor a cell phone would have done the murdered woman any good. Her problem was entirely mindset.
~G. Fink
~G. Fink
It isn't easy. I have been doing this type of work for the last 12 (or so) years and am currently in the process of changing careers. I don't know how people can make it for 30+ years in this field.
As for coping, I have learned that some people just don't have initiative to help themselves. Sometimes it is because they are lazy or ignorant. Sometimes it is because they just don't know any better. Sometimes it is because they lack a basic sense of self-worth and just think that things are supposed to be bad. I doubt that any program is going to fix this, or at least have a significant impact.
I don't that statistics support this. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of women protecting themselves and their family from estranged "partner." There have also been instances where the children have intervened with a firearm to wound or kill the attacker. I would never tell a woman (or anyone, for that matter) that you are better off not having a gun because someone might take it from you and hurt you.
Gordon Fink
Member
I hate to jump to conclusions, but I suspect Mr. Smith is an anti-RKBA advocate here to troll.
~G. Fink
~G. Fink
thorn726
Member
unfortunately , i have to agree that this particular woman, it might not have helped her much.
and many battered women are in such a state of fear, they probably wouldnt use the gun even if they had it.
HOWever= when it comes down to it, if battered women were somehow , like the first time they contct the police,
restraining orders are such fasle security.
these women should be immediately encouraged to defend themselves, and more importantly , to get some training to this effect.
Yeah Kim, i think they should be given at the very least some papers telling them what their rights are , and how best to defend themselves,
that the idea of a restraining order shouldn't be condsidered doing enough.
i had heard there was some kind of law here in CA that said if you get caught or arrested for beating a domestic partner you got instant 21 days, but i cant find it on the web so maybe i am wrong. but this is a good idea.
i mean i the cops show up and a woman is all bruised (or the other way around, it happens) i think i few days in the can is not the worst idea. gives person time to think about how to get away, how to defend themselves.
and gives stupid offender something to think about
if a woman gets beaten, sends the man to the can for 21 days, and then uses that time to arm and train herself a little, now you're looking at a solution
i know one Woman who went to jail for a very brief argument with her partner, so there is some form of this law i am talking about in existence. jail may have been a bit extreme in that case. but then again ,. maybe not.
the biggest problem in all of this is the abusers dont have enough to fear.
they think they will keep getting away with it.
and many battered women are in such a state of fear, they probably wouldnt use the gun even if they had it.
HOWever= when it comes down to it, if battered women were somehow , like the first time they contct the police,
restraining orders are such fasle security.
these women should be immediately encouraged to defend themselves, and more importantly , to get some training to this effect.
Yeah Kim, i think they should be given at the very least some papers telling them what their rights are , and how best to defend themselves,
that the idea of a restraining order shouldn't be condsidered doing enough.
i had heard there was some kind of law here in CA that said if you get caught or arrested for beating a domestic partner you got instant 21 days, but i cant find it on the web so maybe i am wrong. but this is a good idea.
i mean i the cops show up and a woman is all bruised (or the other way around, it happens) i think i few days in the can is not the worst idea. gives person time to think about how to get away, how to defend themselves.
and gives stupid offender something to think about
if a woman gets beaten, sends the man to the can for 21 days, and then uses that time to arm and train herself a little, now you're looking at a solution
i know one Woman who went to jail for a very brief argument with her partner, so there is some form of this law i am talking about in existence. jail may have been a bit extreme in that case. but then again ,. maybe not.
the biggest problem in all of this is the abusers dont have enough to fear.
they think they will keep getting away with it.
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
So what are most women supposed to do when they're attacked? Are they just supposed to take it, and hope they'll live long enough to see the sun rise again? Your view of the world presents a rather dim and bleak future for anyone who happened to be born female. I thank God that the the women in my life don't ascribe to your view of the world. (Incidentally, your statistics are bogus, joeSmith, and I challenge you to back them up.)
I gotta agree with Gordon Fink. This woman's problem was entirely one of mindset. She needed a will to live. Only then would other factors, such as carrying a gun, have made any difference.
It is truly unfortunate that so many people respect neither themselves nor the glorious gift of life enough to bother with trying to protect either of them.
- Status
